Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-05-25 06:48 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-05-25 06:48 pm
[ SECRET POST #1970 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1970 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Majin Tantei Nōgami Neuro]
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
10. [SPOILERS for ASOIAF, Game of Thrones]
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11. [SPOILERS for Dangan Ronpa]
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12. [SPOILERS for Hunger Games]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
13. [TRIGGER WARNING for gore/body horror]
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14. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]
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15. [TRIGGER WARNING for misogyny, rape, racism]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #281.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-26 07:06 am (UTC)(link)Except that in the North apparently it's not that cut and dry, especially in the Stark family. Ned chose to raise him as one of his own amongst his own children, Cat rejected that. Because Jon didn't have another mother to be raised under, and essentially just got shoved out of the way of the family because of Cat being so cold to him, yeah that is a little abusive. It's fairly well implied Cat is a big reason for Jon leaving for the Wall, and her snapping at him (which honestly, we don't know how often that happened when she was upset, because we only see a short time with them and have to go with what's shown and said about it.) Excluding him still makes her a bad mother to him.
Again, though, it's just an innocent child whom Ned appears to love. She's not only neglecting a child (who grows up with moderately severe issues because of it) but flouting the clear wishes of the husband she loves in so doing. Whether or not it was normal Westerosi practice, it was</> her responsibility to raise him and treat him as a son (unlike with Theon, where it just would have been smart to, but who was really a glorified prisoner of war and therefore not her responsibility) because Ned raised him in his family as a son. She so far neglected her son that she outright rejects him as being her son. That's not the best kind of mother.
no subject
Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?
"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.
And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042/
Ned could have provided different for Jon. He really could have. He could have sent Jon off to be raised in the household of one of his bannermen if sending him to be raised with his mother's family was not an option. He CHOSE to disrespect Cat by keeping Jon at Winterfell. As far as we know, Ned never asked Cat to treat Jon like a son and honestly, he never would have done so because it was not expected of her in their society.
And regardless of how Cat treated him, Jon obviously was able to forge close bonds with his other siblings, so he did NOT get "shoved out of the way of the family". She never kept her children from him. I really fail to see how it is abusive. She didn't have any responsibility to him. Sorry if Cat can't be a mom to every kid who comes her way???
Her treatment of Jon certainly does not maker her a horrible mom because she's not his mom, and it hardly makes her a horrible person, especially in the the context of the rest of the series where pretty much everyone else does way shittier things. It just makes her human with feelings that can be wounded and who doesn't always do the most kind and gracious thing.
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(Anonymous) 2012-05-26 07:48 am (UTC)(link)First siblings =/ motherly connection, second not going out of her way to be horrible =/ not being horrible. Just because she's not as bad as she could have been or as other people in the book are, doesn't make what she does right unless you're operating under relativistic morality. So she let him around her children, that doesn't mean she didn't make it clear through her attitude and actions that he wasn't welcome there, and he still lacked a mother and developed complexes from it which eventually led to him taking the black and abandoning the world. (This will probably turn out for the best, but that's not the point, she didn't do it for that.) The point is, Jon is not 'any kid who came her way', he was Ned's son, who was raised as a Stark if not in name, and the only one at that.
Frankly, it doesn't really even matter that it's expected of her or not in her society. No one denies that Viserys is a horrible brother (and person) for selling Dany to Drogo the way he did, and yet that was perfectly acceptable in the society they were in. (If not 100% the place they were, then at least the Dothraki society they became a part of). He does other things that are unacceptable in that society that make him a worse person and brother, yes, but the fact that selling Dany was culturally acceptable both there (and apparently implied under the Targaryen rule of Westerosi?) doesn't get him a pass at being a horrible brother for selling his sister. Just because she wasn't culturally obligated to take him under her wing doesn't make her not a terrible mother to him, and therefore not a shining example of motherhood in general. It could go so far as to imply if she were angry enough at Ned as to leave Winterfell or something, she might stop mothering her children she does acknowledge, since her motherly love has not only been shown to be conditional, but conditional to something someone else does that the child has no control over.
no subject
Stop.
No.
Just.
Stop.
Catelyn loves her children desperately. She would NEVER abandon them or stop loving them. Implying otherwise is really really stupid. Like, REALLY stupid. Everything she does is for the good of her children.
Jon. Is. Not. Her. Child.
He just isn't.
HER LOVE FOR HER OWN CHILDREN IS NOT CONDITIONAL.
Her love for children in the world at large is conditional, yes. And that condition is... being her child.
Which Jon isn't.
Cat is not Jon's mother. It is not her responsibility to be his mother. Yes, it is unfortunate that Jon grew up without a mother. And it would have been lovely if Cat had stepped into that role, but she didn't. And Ned never made any effort to find a nurse or someone else who could fill that role in his life. Jon is not her responsibility. He is Ned's responsibility.
As far as cultural relativity goes, I think there is a balancing act. Expecting the characters to behave as if they are in our world is just ridiculous. But there is a line somewhere, and maybe that line is in different places for different people. Expecting Cat to slip gracefully into a step-mother type role when there is no precedent for that her society is kind of silly. And yet I don't have any trouble condemning Robert for the way he treats Cersei which surely would have been acceptable in Westerosi society.
Maybe that makes me a hypocrite.
I'm ok with that.
I'm not saying what Cat does is RIGHT. But I am saying that what she does is pretty damn human and is especially understandable in the context of her society.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-27 07:26 am (UTC)(link)Okay, but seriously here: Cat does something which is wrong but acceptable in her culture's eyes out of grief. It's not the worst thing she could have done, but it's not good. Robert does something which is wrong but acceptable in his culture's eyes out of grief. It's not the worst thing he could have done, but it's not good. Cat is a good mother who shouldn't be blamed for it. Robert is a bad husband who should be condemned for it.
Yeah.
That's hypocritical. I'm pretty sure that prevents you from fairly arguing the point, because for whatever reason you're biased toward Cat.
Just saying.
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It didn't matter if Cercei killed Robert's bastards, because... you know, it's not the same thing! It was totally okay since he didn't present them to her. But Cat really was a really bad mother because she didn't raise Ned's as one of her own (which he was not).
Your logic, it's astounding.