fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Yeah, sorry. Don't see it. Maybe you thin it is gross, but I don't see it. I think his personality could support that kind of backstory if it actually had happened, so I totally get why people would project on him, but I don't see it. At all. I see a dime-a-dozen case of little brother jealousy. I honestly don't see where you're getting all this demeaning and insulting and emotional abuse stuff from. He was not as popular and important as his older brother, and other people viewed him as kind of a dweeb, so he was resentful. That's all I got from canon.

I think Thor has good reason to feel guilty and responsible for Loki's evilness (because if he had been a better brother and made sure Loki didn't resent him, Loki wouldn't have turned evil), but that wasn't actually his direct fault.

"because if he had been a better brother and made sure Loki didn't resent him, Loki wouldn't have turned evil"

How, exactly, was Thor supposed to make sure Loki didn't resent him? Thor couldn't control the way Loki feels. Even if Thor was the best brother in the nine realms Loki might have resented him anyway (for being popular, for being heir to the throne).

Could Thor have been a better older brother? Sure. But Loki sure wasn't exactly the best brother what with him letting the Frost Giants in (and getting two people killed) just to ruin Thor's big day.

Sorry, I think I phrased that badly. That's what I mean -- it wasn't Thor's fault because he didn't do anything to make Loki like that, but I can totally understand why Thor would blame himself, because there's no way to really counter the argument that if he had been a better brother, Loki wouldn't have turned bad. Maybe he would've turned bad anyway, but there's no way to know.

But that's like saying "oh, if I hadn't been a jerk to my sister she wouldn't have gone off with that crowd and tried meth and wouldn't be a junkie today" or something. You can have a good reason to feel guilty about something even if it wasn't your fault.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. :)

AYRT

I don't think it's projecting, and I'm actually kind of offended that you think the only reason I'd see emotional abuse there is because I'm "projecting" from my own experiences?

I don't think it's as petty as you see it. I really don't. I think Odin was an emotionally abusive father who obviously preferred Thor over Loki, and I think others also made it clear they liked Thor better, and that shit hurts like hell. It kills you inside when you look around and everybody prefers your sibling, everybody treats them better, they wouldn't care if you walked off a cliff but he's the king of the world. Trust me on that one.

I also don't blame Thor, though. He could have been more considerate of Loki -- maybe he should have. But he was pretty naive. He didn't know how his words made Loki feel, how his attitude did. And this is down to Odin, again -- by obviously preferring Thor, Odin taught Thor that he was more important and that it wasn't really that important to think of how other people feel. That Odin evidently treated Thor in such a way that he felt it was okay to tell his brother to "mind his place" is pretty hard proof of this. But... it's not Thor's fault. Thor was immature. It was Odin's fault.

Sorry -- I in no way meant to imply you were projecting. I had a "wait what?" moment here and re-read your previous comment and only then saw that you mentioned you were a victim of emotional abuse -- that's absolutely not what I was trying to say at all and I'm really sorry it came across that way -- I meant projecting as in projecting the image of a standard emotionally abused person onto Loki, not projecting someone's own issues onto him.

I just think that everything you're saying here -- that "everybody" disliked him, that Odin "obviously" preferred Thor, that they all "wouldn't care if [he] walked off a cliff" -- I just don't see where you're getting this info from. Seriously, I'm racking my memory and I cannot understand how you came up with these conclusions.

Nowhere in the movie does it say no one gave a shit about Loki or that Odin was abusive (and first-borns getting the throne is tradition, not a case of preferring one sibling over the other). Odin took great pains to ensure Loki was treated just like his real son -- that's why he lied to him about his parentage (which was stupid, but not abusive). What I got was that Loki was in Thor's shadow. That sucks, but it doesn't mean anyone mistreated him.

AYRT

Thank you for clearing that up, sincerely. :) I've already been honestly accused of projecting once here and was really shocked and hurt to think someone else was doing it. The whole idea of being accused of "projecting" makes me so offended and upset.

Honestly, I felt that way from the first time I saw the movie and was baffled when people didn't see it. I've continued to feel that way in subsequent viewings - I've seen Thor maybe five or more times now and my viewpoint has never wavered, I've only found more evidence of it whenever I watch. (Now, if only I could remember and describe all the nuance and phrasing and such that I notice when I watch the movie! Verbalizing it is really difficult when a good deal of it is things like body language, the way someone says something, small details, etc.)

I got the impression in the film that in Asgard, the first-born son getting the throne was not in any way tradition or a guarantee. It was generally sort of implied that they both had a shot at it, and Odin chose Thor over Loki.

I think it means he was mistreated if no one tried to help him, though. Even pushing aside that I felt that Odin and many on Asgard were directly emotionally abusive towards Loki, to sit and watch while one son is treated badly by his brother* and overshadowed by him, without even saying a word to either of them? Is mistreatment at best.

* I felt Thor's line to Loki about "knowing his place" pretty clearly said how Thor felt about Loki during the movie.

Yeah, sorry again. I really would not accuse a person of projecting. I'm certain some people do project their issues on fictional characters, but I would never presume to know what's going on in any specific individual's head -- that kind of behavior drives me crazy.

Well, I understand your viewpoint more now -- thanks for the explanation. I still don't see it that way, I wouldn't assume he was abused without much clearer and less contradictory evidence, but I suppose we'll just agree to disagree because really, I suppose a lot of the backstory kind of has to be inferred since it's largely offscreen.

AYRT

It's alright :) thank you again for your apology. I agree with you on that.

I think we all make our own inferences based on how we see the evidence provided. So we may never agree, but at least we can be nice about it and see where each other is coming from :)

NAYRT

I have to agree with the first anon here. There's a lot of body-language in the movie that kinda hints to that, for example how Loki seems to shut down and fall back when people (Thor and Odin) interrupt and talk over him.

It's a fine line where your family stops being just rude obnoxious gods (and I say this with all the love - I love both Thor and Loki equally and also like Odin) and some level of emotional abuse starts.

I do sympathize with Loki, it's hard feeling not good enough.

Just wanted to do a drive-by (...comment-by) and say that IA with pretty much every single thing you've said. :D

I got the same vibe as the other poster. I don't think that it was intentional on anybody's part, though. It's a lot of little things; some of the tone in which Odin talks to Loki, and how their group talks to him. Odin struck me as trying to do the best he knew how, but being a little clueless. The group struck me as the sort of friends who make jabs and insulting comments and truly mean it as a joke -- not realizing that it's actually really hurting the other person.

I think it's more that little things add up, especially over time. I really got the impression during the first part of the movie in Asgard that Loki was the odd one out, and that while nobody really may have meant to hurt him, they didn't quite treat him like part of the group either.

I certainly don't think it excuses the things he did, but I can definitely see how he feels like everyone was playing favorites.

Just want to say that this is pretty much my thoughts on the issue. Thanks for putting it into words. :)

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[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

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