[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I personally felt that Odin's favoritism was very clear, and that it was obvious that Loki knew from an early age that his brother was preferred by everyone, not even just their parents. The fact that he seems to have no friends of his own -- even the people he hangs around with belittle, demean and insult him, hell, even his brother does -- compounds this. Personally I felt that Loki showed clear signs of emotional abuse, having essentially spent his whole life being shown if not directly told that his brother was better, more popular, more worthy, etc. than him, seeing that preference so clearly. Then it becomes ten thousand times worse when he finds out his true heritage -- to him, it would immediately become clear: he was treated the way he was because of what he was, and what he was was what he'd been told basically as far back as he can remember was a monster, the scum of the Nine Realms that must be destroyed, that his loved ones want to destroy.

I don't think Loki's emotional abuse was "made up" or "all in his head." I actually think it's kind of gross when people can't see it. But maybe it takes a victim of emotional abuse at the hands of your family (in my case, it was literally my entire immediate family) to recognize it here? idk.

Here's a pretty good piece about it on Tumblr (http://the-deviations.tumblr.com/post/24118747896), and there are tons more.

I don't believe he's a "woobie" or that this excuses his actions. But you can acknowledge that Loki was emotionally abused and treated like shit without excusing what he did.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sorry. Don't see it. Maybe you thin it is gross, but I don't see it. I think his personality could support that kind of backstory if it actually had happened, so I totally get why people would project on him, but I don't see it. At all. I see a dime-a-dozen case of little brother jealousy. I honestly don't see where you're getting all this demeaning and insulting and emotional abuse stuff from. He was not as popular and important as his older brother, and other people viewed him as kind of a dweeb, so he was resentful. That's all I got from canon.

I think Thor has good reason to feel guilty and responsible for Loki's evilness (because if he had been a better brother and made sure Loki didn't resent him, Loki wouldn't have turned evil), but that wasn't actually his direct fault.

[(Anonymous)]

"because if he had been a better brother and made sure Loki didn't resent him, Loki wouldn't have turned evil"

How, exactly, was Thor supposed to make sure Loki didn't resent him? Thor couldn't control the way Loki feels. Even if Thor was the best brother in the nine realms Loki might have resented him anyway (for being popular, for being heir to the throne).

Could Thor have been a better older brother? Sure. But Loki sure wasn't exactly the best brother what with him letting the Frost Giants in (and getting two people killed) just to ruin Thor's big day.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I think I phrased that badly. That's what I mean -- it wasn't Thor's fault because he didn't do anything to make Loki like that, but I can totally understand why Thor would blame himself, because there's no way to really counter the argument that if he had been a better brother, Loki wouldn't have turned bad. Maybe he would've turned bad anyway, but there's no way to know.

But that's like saying "oh, if I hadn't been a jerk to my sister she wouldn't have gone off with that crowd and tried meth and wouldn't be a junkie today" or something. You can have a good reason to feel guilty about something even if it wasn't your fault.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I don't think it's projecting, and I'm actually kind of offended that you think the only reason I'd see emotional abuse there is because I'm "projecting" from my own experiences?

I don't think it's as petty as you see it. I really don't. I think Odin was an emotionally abusive father who obviously preferred Thor over Loki, and I think others also made it clear they liked Thor better, and that shit hurts like hell. It kills you inside when you look around and everybody prefers your sibling, everybody treats them better, they wouldn't care if you walked off a cliff but he's the king of the world. Trust me on that one.

I also don't blame Thor, though. He could have been more considerate of Loki -- maybe he should have. But he was pretty naive. He didn't know how his words made Loki feel, how his attitude did. And this is down to Odin, again -- by obviously preferring Thor, Odin taught Thor that he was more important and that it wasn't really that important to think of how other people feel. That Odin evidently treated Thor in such a way that he felt it was okay to tell his brother to "mind his place" is pretty hard proof of this. But... it's not Thor's fault. Thor was immature. It was Odin's fault.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Sorry -- I in no way meant to imply you were projecting. I had a "wait what?" moment here and re-read your previous comment and only then saw that you mentioned you were a victim of emotional abuse -- that's absolutely not what I was trying to say at all and I'm really sorry it came across that way -- I meant projecting as in projecting the image of a standard emotionally abused person onto Loki, not projecting someone's own issues onto him.

I just think that everything you're saying here -- that "everybody" disliked him, that Odin "obviously" preferred Thor, that they all "wouldn't care if [he] walked off a cliff" -- I just don't see where you're getting this info from. Seriously, I'm racking my memory and I cannot understand how you came up with these conclusions.

Nowhere in the movie does it say no one gave a shit about Loki or that Odin was abusive (and first-borns getting the throne is tradition, not a case of preferring one sibling over the other). Odin took great pains to ensure Loki was treated just like his real son -- that's why he lied to him about his parentage (which was stupid, but not abusive). What I got was that Loki was in Thor's shadow. That sucks, but it doesn't mean anyone mistreated him.

[(Anonymous)]

I think he didn't seem to have any friends because he's Loki (you know, God of Mischief) and therefore has probably pissed them all off at one time or another (notice how Sif's hair is dark, most likely a nod to the myth where he cuts off her blonde locks and she gets dark hair instead. Maybe she held a grudge). I don't really remember all that much demeaning and insulting though. There was that comment that went along the lines of "what happened to that silver tongue of yours?" but that seemed more like ribbing than actual demeaning.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

It didn't really read as "ribbing" to me so much as making fun of him, and if that's a regular thing I can see how that would seriously hurt someone, even if it seems minor out of that context. (Hell, I get upset if someone comments on how I make my sandwiches [I have OCD, there's a system]... because my family made fun of me for it literally every time I made a sandwich for most of my life. This wouldn't probably make sense to anyone who didn't know that.)

And I don't know. I didn't see any real indication in the movie that Loki had done anything harmful to them or anyone else. If they'd indicated that, it would've been fine, but... absent any actual proof, it just looks like Thor's friends are kinda jerks.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

(Hell, I get upset if someone comments on how I make my sandwiches [I have OCD, there's a system]... because my family made fun of me for it literally every time I made a sandwich for most of my life

Ahhh, there we go. Definitely projecting. See ya.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

You are projecting. What makes it clearer than anything is that you completely overreacted to your misunderstanding that someone might even be suggesting such, and can't even conduct a conversation about it without calling people names and telling them to fuck off.

I sincerely hope you're someday able to get some help for what are obviously very deep-seated and painful issues for you.

Have fun getting this thread frozen too. I'm out.

[museridden]

Actually, in the myth he cuts off Sif's hair and has to convince the dwarves to make her new hair out of gold. The actress having dark hair has nothing to do with the myth, and is probably more like a nod to the comics where Loki takes over her body as Lady Loki at some point, IIRC.

[yeahscience]

In the comics, IIRC, it's his cutting and enchanting her hair that makes it turn black.

[(Anonymous)]

even the people he hangs around with belittle, demean and insult him

Wait, what? Volstagg (I'm pretty sure) cracks a joke at Loki's expense, and...that's it. That's literally ONE moment in the film.

But what when Sif and the W3 are talking about the frost giants having a traitor in Asgard, and both Volstagg and Fandrall defend Loki? Yeah, everyone seems so quick to forget about that. Those are obviously the actions of people who hate and revile Loki for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Also, there is literally no evidence that Loki was "emotionally abused and treated like shit." None. Nada. Zipperino. From the very beginning of the movie Odin treats Loki the same as he treats Thor, Loki is a part of Thor's gang (hell, even he calls them "my friends"), and people don't start turning against Loki until he starts being super-obviously-up-to-no-good. Oh, yeah, and when he sends the Destroyer to a small New Mexico town to kill his brother and a bunch of other people.

It's not emotionally abusive to be more popular than your sibling. Sorry, it's just not. And that's pretty much the only thing we're conclusively shown in the movie; that Thor is more popular than Loki.

[(Anonymous)]

NA

They're doing the same thing many other fans of the poor abused woobie do - projecting their own experiences of abuse on to the characters and since they often don't realize they're doing it of course they're going to think it's obvious that the character is abused and everyone else is being mean to them. It's this over identification with the the character that is so frustrating because it can't be argued with. Because no matter how rationally you try to explain why you don't like the character - they can only react emotionally - feeling that it is yet another example of how people are just cruel to abuse victims.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Wow, um, you're kind of being really fucking offensive here. It isn't merely "projecting." In a lot of cases, it's simple fact that abuse victims identify abusive situations a lot more clearly than people who have never experienced abuse -- this is especially true, probably, in situations where the abuse is emotional (a type of abuse many ignorant people deny even exists). Dismissing people's valid and legitimate interpretations of the text (media) here because you think they're "emotional" and "projecting" is really offensive. Really.

[(Anonymous)]

They also ignore him and there are comments made at his expense later.. including the reaction to his becoming king.

I didn't forget about that, actually. But I don't see it as an indication that they care about him or aren't generally assholes to him (and you don't have to hate someone to be a jerk to them)... just that they don't see him as having done wrong in that instance.

IMO, Odin clearly prefers Thor and acts like it. And I already outlined much of the rest.

That is so, so not it. And "more popular" isn't really what I'm talking about. But hey, I guess being obviously preferred by literally everyone around and having that made glaringly obvious isn't abusive at all, right..? Even when it's your family? Uh huh.

[(Anonymous)]

They...don't make any comments at his expense? And there is absolutely no evidence of them being "generally assholes to him." They're shocked at his becoming king, yes, but that was a pretty shocking moment. And Loki's the one who pulls rank on them and shuts them down.

And tell me how Odin prefers Thor more than Loki. Because I'm really wondering how this is so obvious. There's just absolutely no evidence for it, unless you use "Odin made Thor king," and that's stupidly problematic because a) one of them was going to be left out no matter what, b) Thor was the firstborn son anyways, and c) even Loki says that the problem was that Thor wasn't ready for the throne, not that Thor was going to be king (Loki, incidentally, as also not ready to be king, as evidenced by his "let frost giants kill Asgardians to ruin Thor's day" fiasco).

Really, the only person we see getting chastised or punished is Thor. Odin is quick to correct Thor when he says something dumb as a kid, he calls Thor out on not being king yet, oh yeah and then he banishes Thor when he royally screws up. What do we see him do to Loki? Oh yeah, that's right, nothing. The worst thing he says to Loki is, "no, Loki," when Loki just tried to murder all frost giants. That's also disregarding the fact that it was actually Loki who ended up on the the throne anyways, so obviously Odin and Frigga didn't have a problem with Loki being a frost giant and were in fact treating him like their true son.

There is absolutely nothing in the text that gives any indication that Odin preferred Thor. In fact, believing that is hilariously misreading the text. It's one of Loki's key character traits/flaws that he takes what people says and does and twists it to what he believes to be true. Odin even calls him out on it, and so does Thor in Avengers. Taking everything Loki says at face value is just completely missing the point of his character.

[(Anonymous)]

So what, no one's ever made a seemingly innocent joke at you that hurt your feelings, or made you feel demeaned? It was a joke, yes, but people with a lot of pride, like Loki, take being presented as a joke very hard, especially when there's obvious signs that he's been treated as second best his whole life. And yes, they are obvious signs. Odin even admitted, I believe, that he did favor Thor before he fell into the Odin-sleep, or it was at least implied. There is evidence, subtle evidence, that Loki at least felt he was emotionally abused by his family. I'm sure they weren't doing it on purpose, but it was real to him. That's the thing about analyzing a character, if you're not invested in that character and actively looking for the little hits and nods at what makes this character tick, you're not going to see them.

At any rate, people can interpret things how they like. I can see why you would think Loki felt emotionally abused, I can see how you wouldn't. At the end of the day, it's all up to interpretation, and your opinion holds no more support or weight than anyone else's.

[(Anonymous)]

All of this.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Odin even admitted, I believe, that he did favor Thor before he fell into the Odin-sleep

Pretty sure all Odin says is "why do you twist my words?!" When Loki's frothing at the mouth and going "you wouldn't have a frost giant on the throne of Asgard gahhhhhh!" And then Odin swoons and it's nap-time. I think the "implying" is just "something that Loki said," and considering how many times Loki lies or twists truths I think it's fair to pretty much never take things he says at face value. He might believe them, sure, but believing something and having it be the truth are two very, VERY different things.

You know, while people put a whole lot of emphasis on the "I'M A FROST GIANT NOOO!" thing, I think that Odin going into the Odinsleep while Loki was yelling at him was really more of an impetus for Loki than the frost giant heritage thing. The frost giant thing gave him a target, but the Odinsleep gave him a motive. Considering that it was apparently possible for Odin to never come out of the Odinsleep, Loki basically saw Odin die in front of him, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that, "I yelled at dad. Dad died. I killed dad." Which equals a whole lot of guilt, and coupled with the frost giant thing a real need to prove himself a "true" son.

That doesn't really have much to do with anything, I just thought it was kind of an interesting note about the character and people's interpretations of him. :)

[darkmanifest]

See, I agree very much with that piece on Tumblr while disagreeing that Loki was ever emotionally abused (which that piece doesn't state). Loki was under-appreciated for his talents, stuck in his brother's shadow, and the bigotry he absorbed in regards to the giants bit them all in the ass in the end (Odin's very big mistake, if you're trying to maintain peace, don't let your kids who'll eventually become rulers grow up hating the other side, he set things up for disaster from the state with that bullshit), but he was still treated with love, and like everyone else in his family (Thor with his arrogance, Odin with his lack of foresight), he contributed his own fuck-ups to the situation they all found themselves in. And yeah, I've been emotionally abused by immediate family, so that isn't why I don't see it.

[(Anonymous)]

There are varying degrees of abuse, though, and emotional abuse is something hard to pin down, especially when we only see glimpses of Loki's life. With the material we are handed, yes, it is hard to say he was emotionally abused. But we wouldn't be very good at analyzing if we didn't read between the lines and make assumptions based on the evidence we're given, would we? I think he could have been emotionally abused. I think there's enough evidence to say that it's possible. We're kind of seeing the movie from Thor's point of view, only really catching Loki's perspective when he confronts Odin, so it makes sense that, since Thor doesn't realize that he's been unintentionally hurting Loki, that it wouldn't be obvious to people watching the movie. I think this is basically up to interpretation, and I wouldn't say you could deny one argument or the other.

I've also been emotionally abused by my family, but didn't see what other people saw as 'emotional abuse' when I watched the movie. It wasn't until reading statements from others and rewatching the movie that I could see where people were coming from. So I really don't think I'm projecting. Which is a stupid thing to say anyway, because I'm sure a lot of people that sympathize with Loki aren't emotionally abused either.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

[darkmanifest]

Oh, yes, I agree he could have been emotionally abused. There's the possibility of it, based on how dangerously low his own regard for himself was and the question of how he got to that point. It's a valid interpretation, I just don't feel it's the most valid interpretation, the most believable reason for his behavior. That's just a difference of opinion, so yeah, I can't say it's implausible.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS.