[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

even the people he hangs around with belittle, demean and insult him

Wait, what? Volstagg (I'm pretty sure) cracks a joke at Loki's expense, and...that's it. That's literally ONE moment in the film.

But what when Sif and the W3 are talking about the frost giants having a traitor in Asgard, and both Volstagg and Fandrall defend Loki? Yeah, everyone seems so quick to forget about that. Those are obviously the actions of people who hate and revile Loki for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Also, there is literally no evidence that Loki was "emotionally abused and treated like shit." None. Nada. Zipperino. From the very beginning of the movie Odin treats Loki the same as he treats Thor, Loki is a part of Thor's gang (hell, even he calls them "my friends"), and people don't start turning against Loki until he starts being super-obviously-up-to-no-good. Oh, yeah, and when he sends the Destroyer to a small New Mexico town to kill his brother and a bunch of other people.

It's not emotionally abusive to be more popular than your sibling. Sorry, it's just not. And that's pretty much the only thing we're conclusively shown in the movie; that Thor is more popular than Loki.

[(Anonymous)]

NA

They're doing the same thing many other fans of the poor abused woobie do - projecting their own experiences of abuse on to the characters and since they often don't realize they're doing it of course they're going to think it's obvious that the character is abused and everyone else is being mean to them. It's this over identification with the the character that is so frustrating because it can't be argued with. Because no matter how rationally you try to explain why you don't like the character - they can only react emotionally - feeling that it is yet another example of how people are just cruel to abuse victims.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Wow, um, you're kind of being really fucking offensive here. It isn't merely "projecting." In a lot of cases, it's simple fact that abuse victims identify abusive situations a lot more clearly than people who have never experienced abuse -- this is especially true, probably, in situations where the abuse is emotional (a type of abuse many ignorant people deny even exists). Dismissing people's valid and legitimate interpretations of the text (media) here because you think they're "emotional" and "projecting" is really offensive. Really.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

You're right - I took that too far. I'm sorry.

I just remember going around and around and around in circles with someone regarding another character in a similar situation. Where something would happen in canon and they'd be all "OMG EVERYONE IS SO MEAN TO HIM OMG!!!!" and I'd be like "WFT he did [something that would piss most people off] thing in that episode, thing that's why they yelled at him!" and they'd be like "BUT THEY"RE MEAN THEY SHOULD BE NICER TO HIM" Then it would end with how she used to be abuse and she knows exactly how the character feels when people yell at him and all that... and I'd be left still thinking that the characters had every reason to be pissed off at him.

Which means I'm probably doing some projecting of my own.

tw: discussion of abuse

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Thank you, seriously. I really can't stand being accused of "projecting" like that.. as though my own experiences mean that I'm incapable of objectively viewing something, or that my experiences mean that my interpretations of media/text are invalid. It's really gross, and thank you for your apology.

I understand how that could be really frustrating. :\ Some victims of abuse react differently than others, though... when I was younger, I used to latch onto characters who suffered abuse similar to my own, and may have acted in a similar way; I didn't know that what I was going through at the time was abuse and had no way to deal with my feelings, so I dealt with them through the characters. (I think, subconsciously, I knew that I wasn't as horrible as my abusers made me out to be, and thus felt that my chosen character had to also be somehow good, or else it meant I was bad, too? Something like that.) I'd just ask that you try to remember that in the future.

Ugh, this is a really difficult subject to discuss, ha. Anyway I hope I didn't go way off or something, today's been a bit weird and I turned the a/c down to conserve energy and ugh, waaarm.

Re: tw: discussion of abuse

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Huh... I've never had anyone explain the thought process behind liking those types of characters so thank you for that and I will try harder to remember.

I can't make promises though that I won't find it annoying when someone tries to explain away the very real asshole behaviors of specific characters. I mean honestly, even if the characters were abused it doesn't give them a free pass at being asshole, and it doesn't mean other other characters are automatically mean to that character when they tell him off for being an asshole.

Re: tw: discussion of abuse

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

You're welcome, and thank you!

Oh, I totally understand that. I'm sure I was pretty annoying about it when I was younger, too, ha. There's nothing wrong with finding it annoying. All I like to do is to spread some meager awareness of where that kind of thing can come from, because sometimes it can be helpful.

But yeah, being abused doesn't mean it's okay to be an asshole. Sometimes it's just hard to really draw the distinction when you think you're the bad guy in your actual life... and all you wanna do is secretly turn out to be the hero.

[(Anonymous)]

They also ignore him and there are comments made at his expense later.. including the reaction to his becoming king.

I didn't forget about that, actually. But I don't see it as an indication that they care about him or aren't generally assholes to him (and you don't have to hate someone to be a jerk to them)... just that they don't see him as having done wrong in that instance.

IMO, Odin clearly prefers Thor and acts like it. And I already outlined much of the rest.

That is so, so not it. And "more popular" isn't really what I'm talking about. But hey, I guess being obviously preferred by literally everyone around and having that made glaringly obvious isn't abusive at all, right..? Even when it's your family? Uh huh.

[(Anonymous)]

They...don't make any comments at his expense? And there is absolutely no evidence of them being "generally assholes to him." They're shocked at his becoming king, yes, but that was a pretty shocking moment. And Loki's the one who pulls rank on them and shuts them down.

And tell me how Odin prefers Thor more than Loki. Because I'm really wondering how this is so obvious. There's just absolutely no evidence for it, unless you use "Odin made Thor king," and that's stupidly problematic because a) one of them was going to be left out no matter what, b) Thor was the firstborn son anyways, and c) even Loki says that the problem was that Thor wasn't ready for the throne, not that Thor was going to be king (Loki, incidentally, as also not ready to be king, as evidenced by his "let frost giants kill Asgardians to ruin Thor's day" fiasco).

Really, the only person we see getting chastised or punished is Thor. Odin is quick to correct Thor when he says something dumb as a kid, he calls Thor out on not being king yet, oh yeah and then he banishes Thor when he royally screws up. What do we see him do to Loki? Oh yeah, that's right, nothing. The worst thing he says to Loki is, "no, Loki," when Loki just tried to murder all frost giants. That's also disregarding the fact that it was actually Loki who ended up on the the throne anyways, so obviously Odin and Frigga didn't have a problem with Loki being a frost giant and were in fact treating him like their true son.

There is absolutely nothing in the text that gives any indication that Odin preferred Thor. In fact, believing that is hilariously misreading the text. It's one of Loki's key character traits/flaws that he takes what people says and does and twists it to what he believes to be true. Odin even calls him out on it, and so does Thor in Avengers. Taking everything Loki says at face value is just completely missing the point of his character.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

All of this!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I actually made all of my observations based on the film, and not simply what Loki said (though I don't believe every word out of his mouth was a lie, as you apparently do). I would be more than happy to write an essay on the subject, but it's been a few weeks since I've seen the film and would need to rewatch it first and take notes; I hope you'll excuse my not doing that, since I have actual work to do tonight.

I really hate your saying that anyone who thinks Loki was emotionally abused is "hilariously misreading the text." Actually, if you don't think there can be more than one interpretation of the scanty text we're provided with, I'd say you're the hilariously wrong one.

[(Anonymous)]

A couple things here.

1) I don't think every word out of Loki's mouth is a lie, I just think that the audience is pretty much forced (due to the amount of lies Loki does tell that we know are lies) that the audience needs to be discerning in what Loki says that they believe.

2) People can have multiple interpretations of the text. But, in my opinion, interpretations based on evidence have more weight than those based on "because I want it to be that way." We have absolutely no evidence of implications in the text, besides Loki feeling sad, that he was in any way abused (emotionally or otherwise). In fact, that belief goes against Loki's entire character and pretty much the whole point of the movie. People can feel free to believe that Loki was abused if they like, but I will feel free to disagree with them.

[(Anonymous)]

1. But you said right in your post that people who believe anything Loki says about his life are misreading the text! You can't have it both ways, you know.

2. So, basically, "I can interpret the text the way I want, and that's fine, but anyone who disagrees with me, no matter how much evidence they present, is wrong wrong wrong... but people can interpret the text multiple ways, really!"

[(Anonymous)]

1) HAHA. No. I said that anyone who takes anything Loki says at face value is hilariously misreading the text. Because, you know, that's pretty damn obvious. Loki is a lying liar who lies. Just accepting what he says because it goes along with your pet theory illustrates a complete lack of discernment (and does the character a great disservice).

2) You can interpret the text any way you want. Just like I can feel free to disagree with you. And it makes me even easier to disagree with you if it's based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and is consistently refuted by other people. I'm not going to say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT INTERPRETATION, GO DIAF!" But I am going to say, "I think you're pretty obviously wrong, and here's why."

(Also, I'm amused that you say, "no matter how much evidence they present," when, after I asked you for evidence to support your interpretation you went, "...No. For reasons." Yeah, that's SOME evidence right there! No wonder people might disagree with you!")

[elialshadowpine]

*headtilt*

I rewatched the movie fairly recently (my husband couldn't remember what happened and it really set up a lot for Avengers) and I definitely remember there being some jabs at Loki toward the beginning of the movie. They were obviously meant humorously but -- haven't you ever had Those Friends who don't get when they've gone past the point of humor and are actually hurting? Particularly so when it's the same sorta joke over and over.

[(Anonymous)]

Unless the whole beginning of the movie is The Roast of Loki and I somehow managed to consistently miss it, I'm 95% sure that the one wisecrack is really the only joke at his expense.

For the first part of the movie, Loki mostly converses with Thor so there actually isn't much opportunity for anyone to make cracks at his expense. That's why the "silver-tongue turned to lead?" comment is so easy to remember. Because it's the only one.

I mean, Thor says some douchebaggy stuff, but considering Thor is a douchebag it goes with the territory.

And I get having ~mean friends~ but there's not any indication that they are like that at all. Actually, I think it's more likely that Loki would be the mean friend (considering the W3 talking about how he likes to play tricks or making mischief whatever), but to be fair there's nothing that really supports that in canon (besides him turning a cup of wine into snakes or whatever. Which I wish they had kept in the movie because it shows Loki being mean and also shows Thor thinking the meanness is funny, which goes a long way to show how jerky they BOTH are at the beginning of the movie.)

Anyways, I don't think the joke was funny, I just think that people who go, "AND OBVIOUSLY THOR'S FRIENDS ALL HATE LOKI," are...incorrect. Which was where the line of reasoning was leading.

[(Anonymous)]

So what, no one's ever made a seemingly innocent joke at you that hurt your feelings, or made you feel demeaned? It was a joke, yes, but people with a lot of pride, like Loki, take being presented as a joke very hard, especially when there's obvious signs that he's been treated as second best his whole life. And yes, they are obvious signs. Odin even admitted, I believe, that he did favor Thor before he fell into the Odin-sleep, or it was at least implied. There is evidence, subtle evidence, that Loki at least felt he was emotionally abused by his family. I'm sure they weren't doing it on purpose, but it was real to him. That's the thing about analyzing a character, if you're not invested in that character and actively looking for the little hits and nods at what makes this character tick, you're not going to see them.

At any rate, people can interpret things how they like. I can see why you would think Loki felt emotionally abused, I can see how you wouldn't. At the end of the day, it's all up to interpretation, and your opinion holds no more support or weight than anyone else's.

[(Anonymous)]

All of this.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Odin even admitted, I believe, that he did favor Thor before he fell into the Odin-sleep

Pretty sure all Odin says is "why do you twist my words?!" When Loki's frothing at the mouth and going "you wouldn't have a frost giant on the throne of Asgard gahhhhhh!" And then Odin swoons and it's nap-time. I think the "implying" is just "something that Loki said," and considering how many times Loki lies or twists truths I think it's fair to pretty much never take things he says at face value. He might believe them, sure, but believing something and having it be the truth are two very, VERY different things.

You know, while people put a whole lot of emphasis on the "I'M A FROST GIANT NOOO!" thing, I think that Odin going into the Odinsleep while Loki was yelling at him was really more of an impetus for Loki than the frost giant heritage thing. The frost giant thing gave him a target, but the Odinsleep gave him a motive. Considering that it was apparently possible for Odin to never come out of the Odinsleep, Loki basically saw Odin die in front of him, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that, "I yelled at dad. Dad died. I killed dad." Which equals a whole lot of guilt, and coupled with the frost giant thing a real need to prove himself a "true" son.

That doesn't really have much to do with anything, I just thought it was kind of an interesting note about the character and people's interpretations of him. :)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, and regards to the "joke that makes you feel bad thing," yeah, who hasn't, but that doesn't mean you've been abused. Being the expense of a joke (ONE joke) makes Loki more sympathetic, but when people jump to HE'S BEEN ABUSED AND EVERYONE HATES HIM...well, there's just no evidence of that.

And I also will argue with the "evidence he's been treated second best his whole life." I will say that there is evidence that Thor was more popular than Loki with the people...but there's honestly nothing you can do about that. It makes him a more sympathetic character (people love underdogs), but it isn't any kind of indication that he's been abused, and it also isn't any indication that Odin and Frigga treated him any less than they did Thor.

[elialshadowpine]

I think the difference is that some of us are extrapolating from what we saw in the film and assuming that the comments and stuff made are supposed to be representative of what regularly goes on. And yeah, being at the expense of jokes regularly does add up.

I think "abused and everyone hates him" is going pretty far, because it's definitely obvious that people do care about him, but small comments that can be read as critical (from Odin) and probably continuous jokes (the group) can add up. But part of this is that I do know people who had families that made jokes and slight comments favoring one kid, and they feel pretty much like their whole family hates them even though it's pretty obvious they don't -- they just do things differently and don't realize it's hurtful.

[(Anonymous)]

I think one of my biggest problems is people extrapolating that "one comment = OMG THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! THEY HATE HIM!"

I think people just want to find reasons for how Loki is so put upon, and that's just a convenient moment to use (and it always somehow ends up disregarding how Volstagg and Fandral actually stand up for Loki).

And I never really got the "Odin is critical of Loki" thing. It seems way more obvious that Odin is actually more critical of Thor (considering the whole first half of the movie we see time after time of Odin correcting Thor, and calling him out). After all, Odin doesn't criticize Loki at all, outside of that one time he said Loki was twisting Odin's words when...well, that's exactly what he was doing.

I mean, I do think the joke makes Loki sympathetic (which is good because the movie would have been much less interesting is Loki wasn't at all sympathetic), I just don't think that it adds up to anything more than just a joke. If they wanted to show that Loki was put-upon and laughed at all the time, they would have. It wouldn't have been hard to do. But they didn't.

[elialshadowpine]

From a writing perspective, it doesn't make much sense to show something like that if it's not a normal event. Loki's facial expressions also indicated to me that this was something he was used to, but that could be me!

Where did Fandral and Volstagg stand up for him? Are you thinking of the scene when Loki is king, or?

I'd have to go look at Youtube clips for the direct quote, but there were a couple comments in the beginning of the movie that sounded slightly critical to me.

[demishock]

You know, while people put a whole lot of emphasis on the "I'M A FROST GIANT NOOO!" thing, I think that Odin going into the Odinsleep while Loki was yelling at him was really more of an impetus for Loki than the frost giant heritage thing. The frost giant thing gave him a target, but the Odinsleep gave him a motive. Considering that it was apparently possible for Odin to never come out of the Odinsleep, Loki basically saw Odin die in front of him, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that, "I yelled at dad. Dad died. I killed dad." Which equals a whole lot of guilt, and coupled with the frost giant thing a real need to prove himself a "true" son.

Thank you for putting this WAY better than I ever could. When I first saw the movie, I actually thought that Loki's outburst WAS the cause of Odin's collapse - that he'd inadvertently unleashed his magic on Odin or something like that - and it made the scene really horrifying to me. But I think what you've said here hits the nail right on the head.

[(Anonymous)]

That's honestly one of my favorite parts of the movie, mainly because I think it highlights Odin and Loki's characters so well. Odin is trying so hard to communicate with Loki, and Loki just refuses to accept what Odin is saying. That Odin loves Loki like a son, no strings attached. And at that moment I think Odin really understands just how messed up Loki is, but he's falling into the Odinsleep and he can't do anything about it.

And Loki is just stuck there with that "what have I done?" look on his face. Ugh, SO TRAGIC. I love it!