[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cashay]

I don't think you can call attempted suicide a "flaw" for whatever reason. We don't know Loki's motivation, we don't know what he felt or though in that moment. And his feelings, for whatever reason he felt them, were valid. Just because there is no reason to feel that way doesn't mean you don't do.

And yes, I thik there is a big difference between trying to commit suicide and going on a killing-rampage. The one is a mental health issue, the other is something entirely different.

Now, I think both Thor and Loki have issues and have made mistakes, everyone has flaws. But in my eyes there is a whole world of difference between trying to commit suicide out of rejection, despair and other feelings and deciding it's okay to kill people.

Loki did a bunch of bad things, but attempted suicide? Not an example you should use if you're trying to argue the mistakes he made.

[yeahscience]

We don't know Loki's motivation, we don't know what he felt or though in that moment.

Er. Loki isn't a person, he's a character in a movie. We certainly should know his motivation, and many people have posted plausible and compelling ideas about it.

[cashay]

Of course we should know his motivation, but there is only so much someone can tell you through dialogue and facial expression/body language. If you have a book most of the time you're in the characters head, you see the world the way he/she sees it and often know his/her thoughts. What I was trying to point out was, that since it's a movie we aren't in Loki's head.

While we can form awesome theories, and I agree that there are a lot of great ones out there we don't know what is actually going through his head in that moment, how he sees what happened and why he let go.

I was mostly arguing this sentence It's a flaw because he is cherry-picking what he believes in order to further his own sense of self refuses to take responsibility for any of his actions. of the anon above me.

And yes, I know Loki isn't a person, but writing suicide attempts off as "attention seeking" just because they make no sense to you (a general you, not me or you personally) is a theme I noticed with quite a few people. Better to argue it out about fictional character than when real people are involved. (Also I might just be a tad overinvested in fandom though I don't even care for Loki all that much xD)

[(Anonymous)]

Please point out where I said Loki was attention seeking with his "suicide." Because it's...sure as hell not in that sentence you posted, and that's not a belief I hold at all. That sentence is based on actual evidence present through the movie (like how Loki consistently refuses to take responsibility for his actions, and refuses to accept objective truths in order to further his own sense of self).

The thing is, Loki's "suicide" does make sense to me. It makes a lot of sense. It's a terrible thing to do, but I can see his twisted logic in it. But just because you can understand something, doesn't mean that you should condone it, or that it was at all the right thing to do (it obviously wasn't).

[cashay]

I never meant to accuse you personally, I know it reads like that and I'm sorry for making the mistake of trying to discuss a point while being emotional abou it. (That's one of my flaws ;) )

I don't condone his actions and I think especially in the Avengers movie he is really just a messed up, self-centered ass. I think most of the other points are explained beneath, if not please point out what I forgot.

Again I'm sorry for discussing while being overly emotional involved, it makes me say some things that are unintentionally hurtful to others and makes me jump to conclusions.

[(Anonymous)]

Nah, it's cool. I was just kind of like, "Wait, what? But...I didn't even say that. *defensive mode activate!*"

[cashay]

haha that's okay, after all my defensive-mode was having a field day as well =)

[(Anonymous)]

I can call the mindset that leads up to Loki's "suicide" a flaw. Because it very obviously is one of his biggest flaws. The fact that he can't accept objective truths about the world in order to favor twisting it around to whatever he wants to believe is a flaw. It's a flaw that Odin calls him out on. It's a flaw that, at the beginning of the movie, both Odin AND Thor share. Thor twists the world around to make himself a big hero (because he's an arrogant jerk), Odin twists the world around so that he doesn't have to see how messed up his kids are. Accepting that what they saw was actually not how the world really was is a big part of their character developments.

And Loki's feelings were obviously not valid, because that's what the whole movie tells us, and that's why his character is so tragic.

And, yes, we do know his motivations because we've spent the whole movie watching them build up.

Honestly, I find it kind of creepy that you're going so far to defend Loki essentially killing himself. He's a fictional character. We can talk about how what he did was a terrible idea and based on a horrible flaw that he possessed because that's what the movie showed us.

(And, honestly, if you think someone who goes on a killing rampage is in picture perfect mental health, well, wrong. And in the movie their actions are obviously based on the same flaw and thought process. There's a pretty clear parallel between what Loki does, and what Thor does. Thor was just lucky that Odin banished him before Thor was able to get himself killed.)

[cashay]

TRIGGER WARNING FOR DISCUSSION OF SUICIDE!

First of all I think a lot of the argument is stemming from the fact that I still have some problems with the nuances of the English language. For me flaw just isn't the right word but honestly I couldn't find you a better one right now =/
For me, flaw is a bit too easy. It's like saying characters are just good or bad. Something can be a flaw in one situation and a good thing in another. I can't think of anything regarding Loki but a good example would be a character that works too much. That can be good when something has to be done but there are obvious drawbacks about it as well. There are very few things in a character that you can say are simply good or bad.

Valid is the best translation I found for what I mean so let me try to explain what I'm trying to say: Feelings are there. What you feel is valid. That doesn't mean it's rational or reflects what's really going on or is appropriate to the situation. You can know that what you feel is wrong (for example jealousy over little things etc.) or not appropriate for the situation but that doesn't make you feel it any less.
Ever just had a bad day and were in a bad mood? Someone telling you that there is no reason for you to feel like this didn't really change that. Feelings themselves aren't right or wrong, what you do out of those feelings that is what can be right or wrong. And Loki definitely did a lot of screwed up things out of what he felt. Doesn't mean that his feelings weren't real.

I'm not saying he isn't overreacting in essence cause god yes he is. But I think it's a bit too easy to just say:"he's doing it intentionally to fit his world view." I'm pretty sure he never wanted to be an outcast and the villian.

My problem with your argumentation is that it seems to me that you take suicide to always be a concious decision. I've talked to a couple of people who had self-harming/suicidal tendencies, some are close friends of mine. Suicide isn't always something you decide to do. People who don't want to die, who love their life can suddenly find themselves with suicidal urges.

And I'm defending a fictional character because I'd rather dicuss stuff like that where it can't really harm someone instead of when it comes to actual people. Also about the movie part, that's the thing. We have no clue what was going on in the head of the character at that point, anyone might be right with his/her theory. We simply don't know. And that's the great thing about movies (and TV Shows) by not being in the character's head you can discuss different view points, different possible reasons for why he's doing what.

(And yes you're right about Thor not being a picture of mental health and now that I thought about it some more I have to agree that there are a lot of parallels. I jumped to conclusions there, it's personal for me so I can get a bit irrational at times.

Also I have to add I saw Thor once, being sleep deprived on an international flight so I forgot alot about it, which is why I can't properly argue in depth about the characters actions.)

On another note: You're welcome to message me and we can continue this discssion via message, I'm not sure if fandom secrets is the right place for a possible in depth discussion about suicide =)

[(Anonymous)]

No, I get what you're trying to say here, and why you would object to my use of the word "flaw." For me, at least, a flaw is potentially a "negative" aspect of a character, but that doesn't make them inherently good or bad. It's just, well, an aspect of their character. It helps to give them depth and it frequently helps to give them motivation.

Saying that characters have flaws doesn't say that they are inherently bad, just like saying a character doesn't have flaws wouldn't mean they are inherently good (in fact, it would probably mean they are inherently boring).

The thing that I most like about Loki is that he's just this giant bucket of flaws. That's why I love the character. I love it that a big part of his character is that he refuses to grow as a character, that he rejects what everyone else tries to get him to see and instead goes off an does his own thing. He's obviously very, very flawed...but so are Thor and Odin as well, at the beginning. The difference is that Loki doesn't want to see that he's flawed, and that's IMO what also makes him so tragic.

As for the "valid feelings" thing, I...have mixed feelings on that. I don't think that just because a person has feelings that means they're valid. Thor might feel threatened and might feel an urge to prove himself...which leads to a lot of terrible shit happening. His feelings were clearly not valid or based on anything but his own motivation, and that's where the problems of the movie stem from. A lot of the movie is based around having to accept objective truths, even if they don't fit in with what you want to believe.

I see a lot of that with Loki as well. He has a lot of feelings, but they're not based on any real external stimuli, just what he wants to think. And no, I don't think Loki ever wanted to be an outcast and a villain but (and this is pure speculation on my part), I think that he created an image of himself that was based on being what Thor wasn't. I think he also internalized this idea that he was everything Thor wasn't, which led to him feeling that he was the unliked second-son (he sees Thor get recognition, but any time he gets recognition he doesn't pay attention to it). And when that became his sense of self, he became very adept at twisting everything to further this world-view. It's pretty obvious during the frost giant confrontation, where every time Odin tries to explain himself Loki just twists everything Odin says to be something horrible.

As for Loki's suicide, I personally think that it was a conscious choice. I know that things are different in real people, but Loki isn't a real person. I don't think his mental process was "I want to kill myself now," I think it was more based around "Dammit, I was wrong the whole time, and if I go back then I'll have to face my father's disappointment." I think that he saw himself as being stuck between a rock and a hard place, and him choosing the abyss over being with his family was his ultimate rejection of acknowledging any kind of character growth. Basically, I don't think he wanted to die, but I think he wanted to realize that he was wrong about pretty much everything even less. Like I said, we're talking about a fictional character here, where we can actually objectively (as an audience) see his motivations and what goes into making this decision. I wish I didn't have to make this disclaimer, but obviously none of this stuff would apply if Loki were a real person.

Anyways, that's pretty much all I have to say about the suicide stuff, because that's my thoughts on it with regards to Loki.

[cashay]

The way you explain flaw I agree. I seem to have a wrong "feeling" for the word.

(Frustrating second language is frustrating xD) Let me try again because I think I'm not getting across my point =/ If you feel something you feel it. Just because you know it's wrong (like projecting your anger at yourself onto another person) doesn't mean you will stop having those feelings. Taking a look at your own motivations and why you feel that way might help but it doesn't always does.

Your emotions in themselves aren't wrong or right, what you do with them is what can be wrong or right. I think a big part of growing up is learning that just because you feel a certain way about something (angry at your teacher for giving you a bad mark, angry at the world for giving you a bad day) doesn't make it legit to act on those feelings.

As you pointed out this is a big problem for Loki all throughout the movies is that he doesn't grow up and makes the distinction between what he feels and what's actually true.

Your theory actually sounds pretty plausible.

On the suicide: Since I really can't remember much of the movie I think I should just take myself back and not form any theories, I can barely remember most of the plot points.

Again, I'm sorry I let my emotions get the better of me. I never meant to personally attack you and if I did I'm very sorry about it.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't blame you for having the wrong feeling with the word "flawed," because it does have kind of a negative connotation to it (nobody's ever like, "I'm so flawed! Wheeee!"). It's really more like a personality or emotional complication than it is "something that is objectively bad," particularly when you're discussing the craft of writing (where flawed characters are usually the best characters because they have the most potential for growth, generally have a lot of motivation, and are usually more interesting than characters that aren't flawed.)

And I understand where you're coming from now regarding feelings. Personally, I don't think that Loki was ~wrong~ to feel like he's unwanted and whatever (it was factually incorrect but emotions are rarely logical anyways), but I do think that his stubborn refusal to see that, no Odin really does love him and probably killing all the frost giants wouldn't be a way to win his affection anyways is a problem. So it's sort of like, "Yeah, you can feel however you feel...but when your emotions start resulting in you genociding a whole race you might want to take a step back and re-evaluate."

And it's okay if you got emotional about the topic. With this kind of heavy stuff it can be pretty difficult to not get emotional. And I didn't feel like you were personally attacking me so it's all good. :D

[(Anonymous)]

Sometimes your emotions are wrong. Or at least the source of them is completely wrong.

I suffer from depression. When I'm low I start to get twisty thoughts. Emotionally, I start jumping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever that make me feel like shit. I feel like my friends don't actually like me, or that my family doesn't really love me, or that I'm the worst person in the world, even though I logically know that none of these things are true and that when my brain is behaving correctly again I won't feel those things at all!

Those negative thoughts and feelings are wrong. I should not be having them. They're very real, but also very wrong, and if my brain was healthy I would not be having them, or at least not to the inescapable extent that I do sometimes.

[thehandler]

But just knowing that your feelings have no grounds or are "made up" by your mind doesn't make them go away. You're feeling what you're feeling, what you do with it is a whole different point.

Knowing feelings are irrational doesn't make them go away. They're still there, you're feeling them and they have to be take seriously.

I'm not sure if I'm bringing my point across. It's basically: feelings are there, for whatever reason, and rational thinking won't make them go away. Feelings are real no matter how rational they are.

(I still feel like I'm failing to bring across my point =/ If I do indeed i'm gonna try again in the morning^^")

[cashay]

Damn it, was logged in with my RP account =/