Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-08-24 06:35 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-08-24 06:35 pm
[ SECRET POST #2061 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2061 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
[Xena: Warrior Princess]
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02.
[tales of symphonia]
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03.
[The Girl From Tomorrow]
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04.
[Spyro the Dragon]
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05.
[Lamento -Beyond the Void-]
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06.
[Aidan Gillen]
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07.
[Skyrim]
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08.
[Touhou Project]
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09.
[Total Recall]
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10.
[Castle]
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11.
[Spyro the Dragon]
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
12. [SPOILERS for the Dark Knight Rises]
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13. [SPOILERS for Digimon 02]
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14. [SPOILERS for the Borgias]
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15. [SPOILERS for Tales of Symphonia]
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16. [SPOILERS for asoiaf/game of thrones]
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17. [SPOILERS for A Dance With Dragons]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
18. [WARNING for eating disorders]
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19. [WARNING for pedophilia, rape, child abuse]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #294.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 03:05 am (UTC)(link)Brain hasn't fully matured yet.
"He or she would not have been considered such in our own society 100 years ago."
Try to remember which terrible things were considered normal or acceptable 100 years ago and no longer are.
"Bah and bar mitvahs are intended to usher individuals into adulthood -- at the age of 13."
A remnant of an older culture.
"Spanish culture treats 15 as the age of adulthood."
Preeetty sure it doesn't.
"We are "ready," from an evolutionary standpoint, when we hit puberty. If you're female and you're menstruating, then you are ready to have children."
No, pregnancies at that age are considered risky for a reason.
" There are now people in their mid 20s who are still, socially and culturally, children. Think of how you would feel if a friend of yours got married at the tender age of 19. S/he'd legally be an adult, but I'm willing to bet you'd think, "that's way too young.""
True, but shouldn't that be even more reason NOT to have children before adult age?
"The fact is that, after puberty, what separates a child from an adult is pure construction. It's completely arbitrary."
And yet no less real.
"The fact is that, after puberty, what separates a child from an adult is pure construction. It's completely arbitrary. We've come to believe something different, because "adolescence" has been normalized, but it's a fairly recent concept (e.g. the past 60 years). It's not because we've become more enlightened; it's because society has become more advanced, so we can afford to pamper our offspring for a longer period of time. Observe societies that still live in the wild, in as close to the fashion as we were naturally meant to be, and you'll see something very different."
Are you seriously suggesting we imitate societies that live in the wild? Seriously?
Now you're going to tell me that we should do like cultures that marry off women at a young age. (Hint: It's to make them stop studying and start having children and taking care of the household. No, this is not a good thing when it's institutionalized and against their will. It's very hard to argue for it even if it's not against their will. And by against their will, I mean that even if it's not a gunpoint, they will be ostracized and shamed if they don't.)
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 03:36 am (UTC)(link)The brain doesn't fully "mature" until 27. Are you going to tell people that they are wrong for desiring anyone who is below the age of 27?
"Try to remember which terrible things were considered normal or acceptable 100 years ago and no longer are."
The fact that there are some terrible normalized practices at that time does not mean that everything that was normalized at that time was terrible.
"A remnant of an older culture."
A culture in which people died in their 30s, and in which those who we would now consider to be children were not only given but were fully able to handle "adult" responsibilities.
"Preeetty sure it doesn't."
Yes, it does. Turning 15 is a rather important event for that reason.
"No, pregnancies at that age are considered risky for a reason."
I won't deny that they're risky. But they're possible and common, because that is when the body is biologically ready to conceive.
"And yet no less real."
No less real than...what? The idea that a person who is 17 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of voting, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a person who is 20 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of drinking, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a 15-year-old should not drive, yet a 16-year-old is perfectly competent?
It's real in the sense that, like all other constructions, we make it real. It's not forgone.
"Are you seriously suggesting we imitate societies that live in the wild?"
That is not the point. The point is that our concept of what separates childhood from adulthood is a product of the make-up of our society. When you strip away the trappings of civilization, a different picture emerges.
I'm trying to arrive at a baseline for "childhood." That, to me, involves looking at the circumstances under which we evolved and the manner in which we live when thrust back into nature. Primitive society shortens childhood, and it works; advanced society lengthens childhood, and that also works (to some extent. I'd argue that we've now reached a point where we've lengthened it too much). When something of this nature can shrink or expand depending on the context, where do you draw the ultimate line?
"Now you're going to tell me that we should do like cultures that marry off women at a young age."
When it's only women who are marrying at a young age, I think it's pretty clearly a function of how society views females, and not a function of biology.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 04:17 am (UTC)(link)You can't honestly say with a straight face that changes from childhood to ~16-18 years old are on the same scale that ~16-18 years old to 27.
No, and saying that that's what I'm saying is strawmanning.
"The fact that there are some terrible normalized practices at that time does not mean that everything that was normalized at that time was terrible."
...What point were you trying to make by bringing that up, then?
"A culture in which people died in their 30s, and in which those who we would now consider to be children were not only given but were fully able to handle "adult" responsibilities."
Again, being able to handle by sheer necessity isn't the same as "having to handle". And I don't know about "fully".
"Yes, it does. Turning 15 is a rather important event for that reason."
Quinceañeras parties are a thing where I live too, and we definitely do not become adults "please come marry me and take care of me now, grown man" after those any more.
"I won't deny that they're risky. But they're possible and common, because that is when the body is biologically ready to conceive."
"everyone can do it and a lot of people do it" is not a good reason for risky behavior.
"No less real than...what? The idea that a person who is 17 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of voting, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a person who is 20 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of drinking, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a 15-year-old should not drive, yet a 16-year-old is perfectly competent?"
The effect those arbitrary milestone have isn't any more real, is what I meant.
Those milestone are decided for the sake of those who are not ready yet, not because by the midnight stroke you change magically. Oh god, you're one of the people who insist that age of consent should be lowered because they "totally know/was myself a very mature person at a young age", aren't you?
There is no "ultimate line", we establish limits to try to protect as many people as we can; and you just said that our society postpones adulthood; like I've said before, just because it's an effect of our society, doesn't make the impact any less real. What you keep trying to skip over is that: a) we're not going to start sending of children to war, making them marry or having serious burdens over their shoulders, and the parts of the world that do that are frowned upon because that is not a good thing
"When it's only women who are marrying at a young age, I think it's pretty clearly a function of how society views females, and not a function of biology."
I never said it wasn't?
I think we will have to agree to disagree; I see what you are proposing as hurtful, you see what I'm defending as nonsense of some sort, neither of us is going to budge on something we feel so strongly about and this argument is going to go nowhere except making us both more upset and even more stubborn about our beliefs.
Let's just end here and each go our own way?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 04:25 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 04:30 am (UTC)(link)Let's just end here and each go our own way?"
Due to this statement, I'm not going to respond to anything else, because I don't think that you'd appreciate it. But for what it's worth, I myself am not upset. I enjoy this type of discussion and I'm always open to the potential of having my mind changed. In the end, you've given me some things to think about, and so I thank you and wish you a good evening.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-25 04:45 am (UTC)(link)The drinking age shows the same inconsistency country to country. U.S is one of the countries that has the highest legal drinking ages (21). Some countries have no drinking age limitation, or some it's as young as 16-18. So where exactly is our moral point of reference for what age is right or wrong?
Once you hit puberty you are ready to reproduce. Not everyone is emotionally responsible at that age, but neither are some people in their 20's. You do not magically become responsible when you turn 18 or 21. For some people it could come much sooner, or much later. Every individual develops differently, so I never understood why we limit ourselves by age once we hit our teens.
I do believe it's wrong for someone to force anyone into sex if that person does not understand or want it. But I also don't believe that after puberty you only become magically responsible at 18.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-26 01:39 am (UTC)(link)Pretty sure it only "works" because "primitive society" also SHORTENS LIFESPANS, OP.
Besides, why are you derailing this thread on cartoon CP into some soapbox for really young kids having to bear burdens/responsibilities before their time? (Hint: Puberty STARTS at 12 or 13, but doesn't end until you're at least in your mid-20s.)
Unless you're defending the idea that kids of 12 and 13 should get married to each other and start popping out kids of their own. Which is just several levels of WRONG and if you can't get why that is, then I have nothing further to say to you.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-08-26 09:19 pm (UTC)(link)I mean, yes if you most likely are going to die at around thirty, it totally makes sense to have children as soon as possible, so you have time to rear them till their puberty.
Plus, if you live in a small tribe where it is all abut hunting and gathering and not, say programming or operating heavy machinery, you don't need that much time to acquire both social and 'professional' skills needed for you to life life that is considered successful by the standards of the time/place. The amount of skills needed to be a good (effective) parent is low too. So the amount of responsibility and risks that a person takes upon themselves when they enter sexual relationship corresponds with what a barely-pubescent human is both able and capable to do.
In a modern society? Not so much.