fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2076 ]

[ SECRET POST #2076 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2076 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 5 pages, 108 secrets from Secret Submission Post #297.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Wow, Ok, I know this is kind of opening a can of worms, but sorry I gotta say something.

Disparaging someone for having a heterosexual lifestyle is a complete non-problem so counting that as oppression is kinda silly. You'd be part of the majority of the world then, and anything anyone says to you about it can simply be shrugged off as you can now simply go back to a society that has most of it's doors open to you.

I don't see any comments saying bisexuals do NOT get a lot of crap, but if you honestly think any of the stuff you listed compares to what gay people face everywhere, then I'm sorry, but you need some perspective.

Gay people are still face a lot of violence, and you can find many queer women and men that will tell you about how their bisexual partners left them when they couldn't take the heat of homophobia and/or realized that suffering it was something they could opt out of. That alone is enough to tell you that, yes, although bisexuals do get a lot of crap, they are not as oppressed as gay people are.

Homosexuals are just as capable of passing as straight as bisexuals are. This idea that bisexuals can somehow turn off the homosexual aspects of their sexuality or choose to be attracted to someone of the opposite gender in lieu of someone of the same is completely wrong. Anyone can choose to be single or live a lie, that's not somehow exclusive to bisexuals. We may choose to pursue a heterosexual relationship with genuine interest in a person of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean we don't still suffer from homophobia.

Bisexuals in your example aren't opting out of having homosexual feelings: they're choosing to do what many homosexuals also do, which is pretend to be heterosexual and live a heteronormative lifestyle. That bisexuals feel the need to do so is just proof that they are just as affected by homophobia.

Where do you get this idea that bisexuals who are open about their sexuality don't also face homophobia? You act like a bisexual having to hide their sexuality due to homophobia is somehow vastly different from a homosexual doing the same or that the average person is fully aware that bisexuals aren't homosexuals pretending to be straight.

Homosexuals are just as capable of passing as straight as bisexuals are.

They are only capable of doing that if they're not effeminate men or butch women. But this isn't about passing as heterosexual, It's about living a dignified life in society.

Bisexuals in your example aren't opting out of having homosexual feelings: they're choosing to do what many homosexuals also do, which is pretend to be heterosexual and live a heteronormative lifestyle. That bisexuals feel the need to do so is just proof that they are just as affected by homophobia.

Like you said, bisexuals may choose to pursue a heterosexual relationship with genuine interest in a person of the opposite sex and be happy still, gay people don't have such an option.

Where do you get this idea that bisexuals who are open about their sexuality don't also face homophobia?

I don't think I've ever said bisexuals don't face homophobia...? What I did say is that the people affected the most by it are the ones in relationships with a person of the same sex as theirs.
Someone that has a chance to blend in into society while still having a chance to be happy like that has an advantage above those who don't- Bisexuals have advantages in life that gay people lack, just like a masculine gay man has advantages in life an effeminate gay mack lacks. This isn't something you have to be offended by when someone points it out.

They are only capable of doing that if they're not effeminate men or butch women.

...You...do know that bisexual men can be effeminate and bisexual women can be butch, too, right?

But yeah, the thing is, sure, bisexuals can end up in a happy relationship with someone of the 'opposite' gender* and be fine and dandy and accepted by society. But the thing is, that is at the cost of our identities. Most of us don't want to pretend to be straight, and the assumption that we do is upsetting.

Honestly, as a bisexual woman, I find it pretty goddamn upsetting when people try to tell me that my experiences with homophobia and biphobia are less important than a lesbian's because I could conceivably fall for a man and blend in. No. I am still looked at with disgust by homophobic people who find out my sexuality. Some women still act like they're afraid I'm going to molest them because obviously a girl who likes girls wants to fuck any girl that moves. I still have to worry about things like physical assault and even possibly attempts of corrective rape happening to me if I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time and the wrong person knows I'm attracted to women. It isn't magically easier to be bisexual because I can possibly fall for a man.

Also I can't speak for anyone else, but I think games of Oppression Olympics are fucking dumb and I'd never say it's "harder" to be bisexual than gay. That said, it really fucking hurts to have to be afraid to participate in queer communities because of the [fairly high] chance of me being written off because I "have some straight privilege" or what the fuck ever.

* = I am aware that there are more than two genders. I just couldn't think of a better way to phrase that. So have a disclaimer.

But yeah, the thing is, sure, bisexuals can end up in a happy relationship with someone of the 'opposite' gender* and be fine and dandy and accepted by society. But the thing is, that is at the cost of our identities. Most of us don't want to pretend to be straight, and the assumption that we do is upsetting.

You wouldn't be pretending to be heterosexual in that case, you'd be in a heterosexual relationship, and you'd be happy, that's all. Bisexual people who are in gay relationships aren't pretending to be gay either, but if they choose to stay in a gay relationship they will face more hardships than they would if they were into a hetero one. That chance of blending in while still being relatively happy is something gay people don't have. They either become miserable by denying themselves or they accept themselves at the risk of everyone around them making them miserable. Do you see what I mean?

Hm. But right in my previous post I said that I think bisexual people are also affected by homophobia. Thing is, people in heterosexual relationships are safer from homophobia than people in gay relationships are (unless it's an atypical kind of relationship, but I'm going for something more general here). It's not an attack on you personally when someone points out that you have advantages that they don't. It's like if person A is mixed race and has lighter skin than person B, they have advantages that B doesn't, doesn't mean they don't face racism, or that the racism they face is less- recognizing that someone else has got it harder than you doesn't make your experiences null, it just makes you mature, or empathetic. I tried not to use the word "privilege" since you seem to dislike it.

Also I can't speak for anyone else, but I think games of Oppression Olympics are fucking dumb and I'd never say it's "harder" to be bisexual than gay. That said, it really fucking hurts to have to be afraid to participate in queer communities because of the [fairly high] chance of me being written off because I "have some straight privilege" or what the fuck ever.

I agree. But I find it odd that you seem to imply that I'm the one playing Oppression Olympics here. The original anon on this thread is talking about certain bisexuals that specifically say they are more oppressed than everybody else, that is playing oppression olympics, not me pointing out that they're wrong. If you aren't one of those people then we are on the same side.

You wouldn't be pretending to be heterosexual in that case, you'd be in a heterosexual relationship, and you'd be happy, that's all.

But, even as a bisexual woman in a relationship with a man, I'm still bisexual. This isn't the case for everyone, but it is for me and plenty of other bi people; we don't want to lose our identities based on who we date. I actually am a bisexual woman in a relationship with a man. However, I am very vocal about the fact that I'm not straight. My sexuality is a part of me, and I don't want people assuming I'm something that I'm not. Of course, I'm also in an open relationship and am allowed to have girlfriends, so that does color the situation a bit, but still. Actually, one thing that regularly offends quite a few bisexuals is when people try to define us by our relationships. "Oh, you're in a heterosexual relationship right now, so the fact that you're bi doesn't matter". That sort of thing. It's really offensive.

As to the overall matter of the advantages bisexuals have, yeah, sure, if someone is bisexual and they happen to fall for someone of the 'opposite' gender, it's generally easier for them. However, being attacked for having that advantage is really fucking hurtful, and it happens a lot. Honestly I think that happens way more often than bi people claiming to be "more oppressed than anyone else". Actually, I've never fucking seen anyone actually say that. I've just seen accusations of it, like the OP of this thread. And honestly? Though I disagree with it, I completely understand the sentiment. Gays and lesbians have to be afraid of whether they'll be accepted among hetero circles, but bisexuals also have to deal with that unless they opt to feign heterosexuality (and self-denial isn't fun, seriously), and then on top of that they have to worry about being ostracized from queer communities due to biphobic prejudices.

It looks to me like you're trying to say it's not as bad to be bisexual, and that...really isn't true. Also I don't take kindly to any sort of defense of biphobia, which again seems to be something you're supporting, hence me engaging you here. I apologize if I misinterpreted your argument, though.

I know. I said in my previous post that bisexuals in gay relationships aren't pretending to be gay.

As to the overall matter of the advantages bisexuals have, yeah, sure, if someone is bisexual and they happen to fall for someone of the 'opposite' gender, it's generally easier for them. However, being attacked for having that advantage is really fucking hurtful, and it happens a lot.

People pointing out you have an advantage is not an attack. In this specific case it only comes out as a way to keep certain bisexuals from playing oppression olympics.

Honestly I think that happens way more often than bi people claiming to be "more oppressed than anyone else". Actually, I've never fucking seen anyone actually say that. I've just seen accusations of it, like the OP of this thread.

I can't validate or invalidate your own experience on this but in my case that's usually how it goes, which is why I decided to say something. Most of the times it just goes without challenge because if anyone says anything they get dogpiled.
As for seeing examples, on this very thread, besides the OP, there's another anon that also sees it happening often:

http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/670751.html?thread=581616415#cmt581616415

And another anon that seems to genuinely think bisexuals are more oppressed than everybody else, bonus smug attitude and "heterophobia":

http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/670751.html?thread=581651487#cmt581651487

If I were to reduce my argument in order to make it easier to understand I'd say that couples that are perceived by society as heterosexual are privileged in comparison to queer couples. Doesn't mean they don't face their hardships, that their experiences as bisexuals don't count or that they're bad people. It only means that when they say they are more discriminated than gay people are, they are wrong.

My issue here is that what I usually see is gays and lesbians playing Oppression Olympics with this. "Oh, you could date someone of the opposite sex, so you aren't as oppressed as me, so you don't really belong in queer spaces!" Yeah. That's what I see. All the goddamn time. So is it any wonder that quite a few bisexuals feel completely left out of everything? We have a slight advantage that may or may not actually benefit us in the end, and are often alienated from queer spaces because of it.

Well, going back and forth with "it's like this for me" isn't going to get anywhere. I did state my point of view and showed you that other people also feel that way, and if you see that as oppression olympics there's nothing I can do.

For what it's worth I don't think it's fair that bisexuals are apparently alienated from queer spaces, and I'm willing to bet most of the people have a bigger problem with the attitude of oppression elitism some bisexuals have than the bisexuals themselves.

Honestly, though, I have to question why you even care that bisexuals have some alleged advantage. That is almost always a launch point for the "your problems aren't as bad as mine weh weh" sort of thing. That's also why I brought up Oppression Olympics; that's...what worrying about that is. Who fucking cares if bisexuals have the possibility of some level of acceptance, at the cost of our identities, that may or may not even come to be and thus may not ever benefit us? Bisexuals are still oppressed. Who the fuck cares if we're "less" oppressed? Mostly just people who want to alienate us or trivialize our problems because we're not "oppressed enough".

Also seriously, I question this idea of bisexuals "playing Oppression Olympics". Because being upset about the aforementioned attitudes some gays and lesbians have is not Oppression Olympics. It's indignation at being treated like shit by people who should understand. Maybe you have actually run into a bisexual or two playing the "weh weh more oppressed than you" card, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't actually the case. Just sayin'.

Well, I'm not exactly bothered that they have an advantage. A lot of people have advantages in society, myself included. What bothers me is people refusing to own up that they have such advantages and worse, acting like they don't have them. Does it bother you to recognize that you have privileges other people don't? why?

Like I said, repeating my experiences is of no use if you're just going to dismiss them, but saying "I'm rejected by heterosexuals and homosexuals therefore I'm more oppressed", is like, literally playing oppression olympics.

My problem isn't with admitting that I have advantages. My problem is that people regularly play the "oh you have this advantage that this person doesn't, therefore you are less oppressed and your problems are less important" card. For instance, completely taking out the aspect of homophobia/biphobia for a moment, this sentiment is disturbingly common: "hey white women how dare you complain about sexism? Your life is way easier than a black woman's!". This sort of "social justice" is shitty and helps no one, and it's almost always the motive for pointing out that someone from an oppressed group has "advantages", at least when I see it anyway.

In short, who fucking cares? You do not have to be a poor, black, disabled, lesbian woman (or better yet, trans*woman) for your problems to matter as an oppressed minority.

That's generalizing. Many white women recognize they have it easier than black women and still face sexism. If someone shames them for that, they're wrong, but not everyone that notices their privilege is denying their struggles. Though I don't doubt that happens, what really doesn't help anyone is to automatically assume that if anyone points it out that someone has a privilege then they are a "SJW" looking to toot their own horn. That just kills discussion and makes people believe they don't have to think about what they say since they can just dismiss is as a SWJ thing.

If a white woman said she had it worse than black woman no one would stand for it. They would probably tell her she had white privilege, and that doesn't mean they would be saying that she doesn't face other problems or that they are insignificant. Same logic applies here, if a bisexual person says they're more oppressed and someone calls them out on it, they're not out to ruin their life with SJWness.

True, you don't have to be extremely oppressed to face oppression, but I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that bisexuals that say they are more oppressed than everyone else because they're bisexuals are wrong, and if those people are doing so in queer spaces then It's not wrong to care enough about it to call them out on it.

...I'm talking about cases where the person in question is complaining about the prejudices that do apply to them and get shot down for stupid reasons like that. And no, I'm not "generalizing". This is a thing that fucking happens, and it is gross, and this is the first time I've ever seen someone use this sort of line without blatantly intending to attack the "less oppressed" group/person.

But who the fuck says that? What most people I've seen say is that it fucking sucks that they have to not only deal with homophobic straight people, but they are often mistrusted or even shunned by queer people just because they aren't monosexual. No, no one should say they're "more oppressed" (honestly even a group who is shouldn't be saying that because who fucking cares, all oppression is bad), but that....isn't really a huge problem. People are just interpreting "it fucking sucks that both straight and queer groups shun me" as "weh weh I'm more oppressed than gays and lesbians!" which. Isn't what that means.

So you're talking about cases where people get shot down by SJW on a wrong bias, which I said in my post is wrong and don't agree with, and also said is not an case that applies to all. If you can make this separation then how come you can't see that the complaint the OP of this thread is talking about the specific bisexuals that play oppression olympics then? Because that's gross too, and that's what I object to.

"But who the fuck says that?"

You've already asked that. I gave you my own experience with people that say that, and linked to a person on this very thread saying it, and another saying they also see it happen all the time. What's the point of asking who says it if you're just gonna refuse to acknowledge it happens? Also, if people are saying "We are more oppressed than gays and lesbians" when they aren't then it doesn't fall on the gay and lesbians to read any hidden meaning into it other than literally what it says.

The legitimate concerns of bisexuals are regularly lumped in with what you're talking about. Which really isn't a common thing. It probably does happen, but not nearly as much as. You know. Bisexuals actually being discriminated against by both heterosexuals and gays and lesbians. And I'm sorry, but even if I disagree with any "more oppressed" arguments, quite frankly, I cannot blame anyone for being disgruntled when they get shit from both homophobic straights and the rest of the queer minority umbrella. And seriously, on what planet is it not a problem that myself and other girls like me have both had straight peers balk at them for being sexually attracted to women, and have had lesbians flat out tell them that they wouldn't ever consider dating them because they're afraid they'd just leave them for a man?

Those were not examples of anyone actually saying that. Those were examples of people claiming they've seen it, and one idiot using the word "heterophobia".

They shouldn't be, and in this case I honestly don't see how they were since other issues of bisexual people never even came into discussion. Just because someone points out a specific issue a within group of people it doesn't mean they're saying every person of that specific group is like that(ie when women criticize guys they are obviously talking about the bad apples and not every male). Whether they happen more or less I really couldn't say. Honestly though, it's kind of funny that just like you understand and can't blame bisexual people for this, I also understand and can't blame gay people for being selective about their dating preferences, oh well.

Those were not examples of anyone actually saying that. Those were examples of people claiming they've seen it, and one idiot using the word "heterophobia".

This is nitpicking. You asked who says it and I pointed to you someone who said it. Their idiocy is a whole different issue. As for me, this happened in a IRL event so there's not much proof I can give you other than my word, if you don't want to take that then I understand. But the heterophobia idiot is still there, and he's still saying exactly what you are denying people say.

....The issue at hand is when people automatically fucking assume that any bisexual who complains about his or her situation as a bisexual being difficult because of the discrimination they face is trying to claim to be "more oppressed" because we have the nerve to complain about another minority's mistreatment of us. It's directly fucking related to this.

No, it's not nitpicking. I am asking for an example of a bisexual actually claiming that they're so much more oppressed than a homosexual. People complain about shit that actually seldom happens all the time. You are not providing a valid example. As for whatever happened to you, why should I believe you when all you tell me is "oh yeah it totally happened"?

Also, I like how you compared a minority to the majority up there with your men example. Cool.

The issue at hand is that if a bisexual declares that their issues override that of other queer people because they suffer more discrimination than they do they are wrong, regardless of quotation marks around it or supposed ignorance on the part of the bisexual person. No queer person has an obligation to walk around eggs over a bisexual person who refuses to understand such a simple concept that is not to make light of something they don't personally experience while deciding that they have it harder.

The reason I have no proof of it is because I have no way to backlog bigotry in real life, but I said in my previous post that I understood if you didn't want to take my word for it. The anon claiming exactly what you denied anyone claims is still there, and for some arbitrary reason you simply refuse to acknowledge it. Again, they said exactly what you asked about, making them a perfectly valid example.

I'm not comparing groups. I'm comparing a specific behavior of people that see someone mentioning a bad apple behavior within a group and getting offended by it, because they think that person is applying that to everyone. Sometimes behavior between groups of people overlap, and getting angry when people make an inevitable comparison, just to make a point easier to understand, seems like you're looking for a way to feel offended.

No queer person has an obligation to walk around eggs over a bisexual person who refuses to understand such a simple concept that is not to make light of something they don't personally experience while deciding that they have it harder.

>they don't personally experience

Are you fucking stupid or something? Bisexuals still have to deal with homophobia. When I'm with women I get funny looks. I get called a dyke. I get catcalls and men asking if they can watch us fuck. I just also get called a slut, a liar, an attention whore, and a lesbian who won't come all the way out of the closet by biphobic people when they find out that I'm into men and women. Oh I also get called transphobic and accused of trans* erasure for choosing the label bi instead of pan, even though that's a bunch of bullshit. So how about you shut the fuck up and stop making light of things you don't personally experience?

Oh also I really like how you're implying that bisexuals aren't queer.

Edited 2012-10-26 21:52 (UTC)

Oh my god. You're just beyond reasoning with. I was obviously not saying that, and again, you're twisting what I said in order to get angry for no reason. Queer experiences aren't all the same, and the experience of someone who is bisexual is not the same as someone who is a lesbian - to point that out isn't saying that bisexuals don't also experience hardships. I've said so numerous times on this convo.

It is terrible that you go through all of that. I won't ask for you to prove it though. I am, however done with trying to reason with you if you're just going to insult me or explode into a rage over things I didn't actually say.

Okay, no, you're just absolutely fucking ridiculous. You directly say something and then claim "I didn't say that!" Yes you fucking did. How about you just own up to the fact that your entire goddamn argument is that biphobia isn't a real problem? Which, by the way, is a disgusting stance to have.

Or better yet, how about you just fuck off? Since you refuse to listen to a word I say, claim you didn't say things you said in your last post, and are surprised when your own biphobic stances piss a bisexual person off. Yeah, I've had enough of you.

I said I didn't, and I didn't. If you actually bothered to look at all of the posts I made in this convo I said numerous times that bisexuals also face homophobia, but you didn't, because it's easier for you to wave your arms around screaming biphobia and hoping it sticks.

Me, fuck off? how about you don't try to enter arguments if all you're gonna do is flail around trying to make the other side into some sort of SJW(while trying your best to go into SJW rage yourself during the whole discussion), ignore points once you can't argue against them anymore or decide that someone must be saying what you want them to, despite they explaining themselves over and over that not the case?

It's hilarious that you're saying I'm the one who's refusing to listen to anything you say, since you're not saying anything- you're just trying to pick a fight and work out some wank boner. I've had enough with you the second you thought you had a coherent argument.

This is what the argument has boiled down to so far:

my side: it is bad and harmful to assume that a bisexual who complains about being treated like shit by other members of the LGBT community is trying to claim to be "more oppressed" and/or that his or her claims aren't valid because they can "pass as straight people" (which by the way that sort of logic is generally offensive as fuck to bisexuals because it assumes we're in heterosexual relationships and no one wants to fucking pretend to be something we aren't)

your side: weh weh some bisexuals pretend to be more oppressed so we must side eye every bisexual who claims to have gotten shit from lesbians and gays!

Yeah no you're kind of disgusting here. I'm done with you.

I like that you put your argument first, as if I was the one that came into this discussion later. That was you, by the way.

A bisexual complaining about being treated like shit by other members of the LGT community is completely entitled to do so. If they choose to poorly word their defense by saying they have it worse than every one else in the queer community then people should call them out on it, because much as they have been oppressed they also have privilege, and if anything YOUR argument was that bisexuals should be babied by the rest of the community, who should just let them go around saying they're more oppressed than everybody else, not to mention saying this doesn't happen often, even though there's people on this very thread claiming to witness it, and a person saying it, then saying it doesn't happen enough to matter:

"Which really isn't a common thing. It probably does happen, but not nearly as much as. You know. Bisexuals actually being discriminated against by both heterosexuals and gays and lesbians."

(I don't know if the "weh weh" is just childishness on your part or your writing ~style so I choose not to add them here)

As if that makes it somehow a gay person now being obligated to tolerate someone who is bisexual saying something offensive. When someone criticizes that attitude they're not lumping every bisexual person together, as I said, using the way men tend to take offense when women criticize "nice guys", even though they're not talking about every man in the world. Of course, you just saw the word man and tried to go into an "I'm offended" angle.

As for being done with me, you don't really seem to be since you keep filling my inbox with this convo that you started answering me on. I don't believe that I'm wrong, or that you did a good job of demonstrating I am wrong, and I can defend my viewpoint anytime.

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nachtmusik - 2012-11-01 04:24 (UTC) - Expand

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gobbledigook - 2012-11-02 09:34 (UTC) - Expand

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