[ SECRET POST #2082 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2082 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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03.
[Fate/Zero]


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04.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]












05. [SPOILERS for Journey Into Mystery/Everything Burns]



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06. [SPOILERS for Avengers]



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07. [SPOILERS for Sweeney Todd]



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08. [SPOILERS]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














09. [WARNING for depression/suicide]

[Wilby Wonderful (2004)]


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10. [WARNING for abuse]

[True Blood]


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11. [WARNING for rape]



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12. [WARNING for suicide/self-harm]

[Alex Gaskarth/All Time Low]


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13. [WARNING for abuse]



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14. [WARNING for abuse/bullying]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #297.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ],.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[visp]

No, that's just the English pronunciation of 'Paris.' 'Kai-yo-to' and 'Main-ga' aren't - those are just point-blank mispronunciations.

[galerian-ash.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I don't see the difference. Saying Paris is just as much a mispronounciation as "kaiyoto" is an English pronounciation.

Again, that's only my opinion -- just as you have yours. Let's agree to disagree, yeah?

[visp]

So how do you differentiate "Foreign pronunciation" from "Foreign person pronouncing a word wrong," or are you saying that a foreign-speaker can't mispronounce a word, just pronounce it their own way?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm guessing you've never been in a situation where you needed to talk about two or more cultures in a third language. Basically, there are two issues at play: 1) it sounds pretentious as all hell not to used an -ized pronunciation; and 2) truly switching sounds between two or more languages is difficult. If other people are not familiar with the sounds of the other languages, it can lead to not just confusion but flat out incomprehension of certain words.

Let's say you're talking about Anders Breivik and his attacks on Oslo and Utøya. Anders and Oslo are both typically pronounced in Norway with what we would write as the digraph "sh". Utøya contains sounds that don't exist in the English language. Combine that with double stress and the chances of someone who has only ever read the words of understanding the context go way down. So most people use pronunciations that aren't radically off but reflect English orthography.

Anime and manga are also at the point of becoming loanwords, which often destroys the original pronunciation of the words (how many French loanwords do you pronounce "correctly" on a regular basis?). "The English pronunciation of Paris" is an egregious mispronunciation of the French name. Berlin, Oslo, and many other capitals are similarly mispronounced. All "the English pronunciation" is is the acceptance of systematic mispronunciation.

[visp]

1. There's no reason why 'Kyo-to' is unpronounceable in English. All Japanese sounds expect for the 'R' /'L' thing are perfectly pronounceable in English, and most other languages as well, actually, it has a very simple pronunciation scheme. So no, it's not that they can't pull off the actual Japanese name and had to do an English equivalent, it's that they just don't know how to say it properly. You're just as much of a dumbass saying "Kai-yo-to" as you are calling something a 'ca-me-leon' or saying that you were 'missle-d.'

2. I actually speak several languages, and no, using non-ized pronunciations doesn't make you sound pretentious, it's the best way of ensuring that people understand what you're saying. If people aren't "familiar with the sounds of other languages" then the chance that they'll understand your personally bastardized version of a word is like expecting an American with a high school Spanish education to understand Spanish spoken by someone with a heavy German accent.

[(Anonymous)]

Except it's almost never a "personal bastardized version" as opposed to the "really, really common bastardized version" that is so common that a lot of people don't even know it's bastardized.

Those aren't the same situations at all.

[visp]

A few anime fans getting their words wrong counts as "really, really common bastardized version" now? I think not.

[(Anonymous)]

1. I have never heard anyone mispronounce Kyoto in AmE. Japanese is actually not a very good example of this phenomenon because almost all of its sounds exist in English, unlike those of most Germanic, Semitic, or Romance languages.

The way you pronounce Kyoto is most likely an approximate of the name that you are fooling yourself into thinking is the native pronunciation. I have nothing against approximates; indeed, I find them ideal for this situation.

As I showed in my example, the orthography of certain languages or the orthography of certain transliteration systems makes it such that you cannot use English orthography to properly pronounce words. Those who are not familiar with the sounds of the other language may become very confused or not even recognize the sounds as, well, sounds (ch in German is a good example) so it is in the best interest of all parties to use an approximate that better meshes with the language being spoken, in this case English. Your example really makes no sense as the idea is to draw language B closer to language A, not introduce a completely different language to add to the confusion.

2. You clearly have no idea what I'm talking about- which you would if you were at a fluent or near-fluent level in multiple languages- so I'll let you think what you think.

[visp]

Japanese is actually not a very good example of this phenomenon because almost all of its sounds exist in English, unlike those of most Germanic, Semitic, or Romance languages.

Exactly, which is why your argument about how some words can't be pronouced correctly in English has absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed here. So why are you bringing it up?

[(Anonymous)]

Because we're talking about -izing foreign words in general to aid in comprehension. Japanese sounds are not so different that they aren't recognized as existing like ch in German or gh or ' in Arabic, but there is still the issue of the orthography of the transliteration not being consistent with English orthography. So you -ize pronunciations to aid in the comprehension of those not familiar with the sounds of the Japanese language. When others are familiar with Japanese, feel free to use the Japanese pronunciation; when they're not, -ize it.

The fact that you are unable to understand any of this honestly makes me doubt if you speak a language other than English fluently as these are common issues for multilinguals dealing with others unfamiliar with the spoken aspect of a certain language.

[(Anonymous)]

You're just as much of a dumbass saying "Kai-yo-to" as you are calling something a 'ca-me-leon' or saying that you were 'missle-d.'

English has many, many dialects. Don't fool yourself into thinking that your dialect pronounces words in the one, correct way.

[visp]

Yes, English has many dialects. None of them pronounce the above words like that.

[(Anonymous)]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chameleon#Pronunciation

[ariakas]

Hahah you beat me to it. I was just thinking "huh? isn't 'kuh-me-leeuhn' North American Standard?".

Why, yes, yes it is.

[ariakas]

no, using non-ized pronunciations doesn't make you sound pretentious, it's the best way of ensuring that people understand what you're saying

That isn't even remotely true. When speaking Japanese, I frequently Japanize my pronunciations of English words, despite being a native speaker of English, because if I don't Japanese people frequently won't understand me. They're accustomed to hearing the Japanized versions of "nuance", "mother", "Vancouver", "Washington", etc., you name it. When a native English speaker pronounces the word, particularly if they do so at a normal speed and don't enunciate, this can be very difficult to follow. E.g., "mazaa" is much more understandable to a native Japanese speaker as "mother" than the actual, proper English "muther"/"mahthah" (depending on dialect).

Similarly, pronouncing "Chernobyl" or "Prypiat" correctly - something that comes up pretty often in my fandom - around native English speakers is about the fastest way to draw a room full of blank stares. In theory there's nothing other than a rolled "r" preventing a native English speaker from saying either of those the way they're intended, yet for some reason nobody does.

Honestly, could you give me some examples of how using a "non-ized" pronunciation aided in understanding with speakers who are accustomed to an "-ized" pronunciation? Because I'm multilingual myself, and like several of the anons here, my experience has been the diametric opposite of yours. Hell, even in Japanese with English speakers who presume to know the language: try pronouncing "yaoi" correctly in a room full of fangirls, and watch the blank stares roll in (and the "no!!! it's "yowie"!!", no it's "yah-oy"!). I'm curious, and honestly kind of dubious, given how universally the opposite has been the case.

[(Anonymous)]

Anon from above but not the one you replied to, if that makes any sense?

I agree. If I'm talking to bilingual English-German speakers, I won't think twice about pronouncing words correctly or using non-English versions of names (Bayern instead of Bavaria, etc.) because I know I'll be understood. If I'm talking to non-German speakers in English or non-English speakers in German, I'll use an -ized pronunciation except in most cases of names (though I have to -ize names sometimes because they won't be recognized as words otherwise- many AmE speakers are familiar with the surname Ziegler in the -ized version, but I get blank looks if I pronounce it correctly because [ts] cannot be used as an initial sound in English).

I just can't see a person not understanding this and being genuinely multilingual. When you're multilingual, your most pressing issue is being understood by whoever you're talking to, not in pronouncing things "correctly". You get aggravated the first few times when you have to adapt your name or the name of your hometown, but then you get over it because you understand that some sounds are difficult for non-native speakers. It becomes routine to ensure that the greatest amount of people understand what you are saying.

It seems to me that this issue only comes up with people who are learning a second language for the first time and think it's an abomination to -ize pronunciations, which is probably why the general consensus is that you sound pretentious as all fuck when you do it.