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[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2134 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #305.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[misstwist]

Hmm. I take issue with your general characterization of Japan as homophobic and xenophobic. Homosexuality, in general, is a non-issue in Japanese culture. Japanese GLBT people and activists don't struggle with homophobia in the same way that we do in the US, for example. For them, it's less about direct prejudice and violence, than it is about basic visibility and autonomy. Just getting your family to understand that you're gay and don't want to get married to someone of the opposite sex just to have a family is a huge barrier. It's tied directly into the communal Japanese culture. Xenophobia is different, too, as it is more about the superiority of Japanese people than the fear of outsiders. It has been my experience in traveling in Japan that there is some kind of ranking of the people of the world, with the Japanese firmly on top - there is nothing like being patted on the head by an elderly Japanese woman when you give her the correct change to make you feel like you're "special."

"Sexist" is debatable, too, given that as long as one is not a Japanese woman, one can do whatever one wishes...

All of this goes to the larger response in thread, that you can't make simple statements or assumptions about a place without travelling there and taking the time to talk to the people and learn about thier culture from them.

[anonymouslyyours]

Oh my God. You're good.

Troll or just a nut I'm really glad to have you here.


No really, this is brill!

They're not homophobic they just don't acknowledge gay people!

You can't say sexist or xenophobic because they just hold Japanese women to unfair standards.

[misstwist]

My point is that it's culturally bound and you have to EXPLAIN what those terms mean inside of that culture. For example, homophobia in Japan /= gay-bashing, but acquiring basic visibility. It is a different issue.

[anonymouslyyours]

If I say that denying homosexuality is homophobia and not a form unheard of in probably any other country outside of Japan as well are you going to condescend to me?

[misstwist]

I don't understand your point. I'm talking about something very specific to the culture of Japan, not a world wide definition of "homophobia" - that's my point, it's going to be culturally bound no matter where you are and it's important to understand that.

Its not "denying homosexuality" in the sense of "there's no such thing/it's a choice/you need to be cured" - which is how it is typically presented by fundamentalists in the US, for example. It's more of a "that's okay, but you still have to meet all of these other expectations which include marriage and children, but you can still be gay on the side!" attitude - which is very different than the general understanding of "homophobia." Japanese GLBT people are dealing with much more fundamental issues of visibility than those in the US have had to deal with for almost 50 years and there is no vocal opposition, there is no public argument, it's non-existent.

GLBT activists in Japan have a hard road to hoe - which is why I support organizations like Colori Caffe (http://www.coloricaffe.com/) in Kyoto and the 'zine Girrls Love (http://girrlsluv.com/).

[anonymouslyyours]

Really? You don't think an expectation for a gay person to have a primary heterosexual relationship isn't at least a level of denial about what it means to be gay?

I'm not saying it's identical to homophobic denial in the U.S. just that it's homophobia and it doesn't really need a special 'but not really' disclaimer when someone is speaking generally about attitudes in Japan.

Just because you assume everyone has preconceived cultural notions of homophobia and expects them to apply world wide doesn't mean the word homophobic doesn't describe common Japanese attitudes toward homosexuality. Sure, delving into the implications of applying a term to another culture isn't a bad thing. But you can't call out anon for using it.

[(Anonymous)]

you fail, anon.

[anonymouslyyours]

Oh, enlighten me you tease!

[(Anonymous)]

The fact that it manifests differently doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I get that you're taking the terms very literally (e.g. Japanese are incredibly ethnocentric rather than xenophobic, as "xenophobic" literally means "afraid of foreigners"). I guess that's cool. But it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For example, being sexist against the women of one ethnic group is still a form of sexism.

[misstwist]

For example, being sexist against the women of one ethnic group is still a form of sexism And a form of racism and a form of xenophobia. Which is why I'm insisting on being specific in this dialogue - transferring terminology among cultures brings with it the danger of equating very different kinds of struggles that fall under the same umbrella and glossing over unique cultural experiences.

[insanenoodlyguy]

Change your icon. You are so weeaboo I think you need this.

[diet_poison]

I'm confused about your statement about Japanese women...

[misstwist]

Based on the conversations that I've had with Japanese women, there are very strictly gendered expectations for men and women in Japan. These expectations do not apply to non-Japanese people, these women (and some of the Japanese men I spoke with) described non-Japanese women as being "neutral" or a "third gender" - it was a fascinating to hear Japanese women talk about it: "Japanese women must have fair skin to be attractive, but you don't."

Again, I don't know that I would call it "sexism" - at least, not in the Western modality where vagina=less than, Japanese sexism is a different beast.

[blueonblue]

You know, every day I deal with so much sexism and random outbursts of right-wing xenophobia that they think I don't have enough Japanese to understand, all I can say is that "strictly gendered expectations" are part of sexism. They contribute to workplace discrimination and inequality.

Also, the fair skin thing applies to foreign women as well. Your friends were probably trying to be nice about it.

[misstwist]

Am I stepping on your expert's toes? Sorry.

[anonymouslyyours]

blueonblue brought an expert? Unfair!

[blueonblue]

Stepping on toes...no...emotional reaction to your gays are invisible and women aren't people but that isn't homophobia or sexism, yes. Looking at your other comments, it appears that you're sincere, but I have no idea what you're trying to do. Japanese sexism (racism, homophobia, etc.) isn't like the US version, is that all you're trying to say?

[(Anonymous)]

Being described as "neutral" or "third-gender" despite being a woman wasn't disturbing to you? (I don't mean to insult any trans or third-gender people here -- I just get the feeling that "gender-neutral" in this specific case means "not worthy of consideration in our society's gender binary."

[(Anonymous)]

...Dude. Just because it's a different kind of sexism or homophobia than what we're "used to" in the west doesn't mean it isn't sexism or homophobia. Get your head out of your ass. Japan can be a really messed-up place if you're a minority or a woman, just like in many, many countries around the globe. Just because they treat them differently doesn't change the fact that they're treating them differently.

[diet_poison]

uh that sure sounds like sexism to me. =/

I get that you're trying to differentiate the way sexism etc. is manifested in Japan, but it's confusing when you try to say that means the word "sexism" doesn't apply the same way because I think it definitely does.

[misstwist]

I prefer more explanation of cultural paradigms to less, I did not mean to eliminate the negative impact of these paradigms on individuals. I just don't think "sexism" is sufficient.

[(Anonymous)]

Did you just have your first upper-level Anthropology course? Because your arguments for cultural relativism are lacking in nuance, and boneheaded, but mostly lacking in nuance.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh look, here's another person in the echo chamber following the bizarre social protocol of fandom!secrets!

[(Anonymous)]

If this is misstwist, I'll be doubly saddened, since she never took the time to respond to us lowly anons.

[(Anonymous)]

What's up with that seriously? Us lowly anons have been a part of fandomsecrets since day one :(