fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2137 ]

[ SECRET POST #2137 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2137 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 015 secrets from Secret Submission Post #305.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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What the hell is this?
No seriously, wtf is going on there? I haven't watched TFP since the summer break and thought this gif was one of The Hub's jokes (like the one with Megatron listening to My Little Pony).

PS: Thirding (?) the secondhand embarrassment. And I don't even know what this is about.

It didn't "really" happen, but it was part of an episode. Without being too spoilery, it's seen as part of Starscream's own imagination/unreliable memories. And I think he was embarrassed too.

Didn't really happen? I thought everything that we saw in that ep was supposed to have happened -- Megatron said that the memories could not be altered or modified and literally said "What we see is how it happened."

My assumption was that that meant that SS really had made them chant All Hail Starscream at him and danced. We just didn't see that bit because it was never in the stuff we got to see in episodes.

If that makes any sense.

(Nota bene: I do agree that memories are unreliable. But I think Megatron's "how it happened" bit was supposed to mean that within the ep we were supposed to consider it factual, not imagined or embellished. Even though that's not how real memories work at all.)

Edited 2012-11-08 23:35 (UTC)

I'm the anon from above.
I kind of hate how often Starscream was played for laughs in TFP. Don't get me wrong, Starscream has always been pathetic in many continuities, but it seemed to me that in TFP he was just supposed to be the butt monkey of all Decepticons (heck, even comic relief Knock Out was often more dignified than him).

That's one of the many reasons I stopped watching.

I agree. I'm really pleased with his competence and badassery in the last three episodes. But the buttmonkeying really bothered me too.

As does some of the "Megatron doing crazy shit just because he's so evil"ing.

*facepalm*

MY LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TFP 'CONS, LET ME SHOW YOU IT

CURRENT VALUE: LOVE

Edited 2012-11-08 23:48 (UTC)

But Starscream has always been played for laughs and supposed to be the buttmonkey. This is hardly a new thing. If anything, TFP!Starscream is among the more competent versions. I mean, G1 is... G1. TFA could be pretty badass but he was still a loser and consistently played for laughs. I'm still surprised that so many fans see the Prime version as more pathetic than the other versions. What are you comparing him to?

I can't speak for the anon, but for myself -- I had high hopes for him at the beginning. He seemed quite competent, managing the Decepticons' affairs well and avoiding conflict with the 'Bots while harvesting resources. He also killed Cliffjumper (admittedly, not difficult given CJ was already a prisoner.)

To me, this seemed to suggest he would be a competent lieutenant with clever schemes, not a woobie buttmonkey. (They seem to have shifted back toward the former at the very end of S2, but I don't know how long it will last.)

Personally, I find both Starscream and Megatron to be portrayed very unevenly. Just as SS is sometimes a buttmonkey, sometimes a woobie, and sometimes the guy with the amazing plans, Megatron is sometimes a fierce, fearsome, and cunning warlord, and sometimes completely stupid about his ax crazy.

My personal opinion as a Decepticon fangirl who loves both characters is that the competent, clever versions of each are absolutely stunning and among my favorite versions of them ever, but that the poorly-written "evil breaks things all by itself" versions are so bad as to make me want to throw things.

So I have a real love-hate relationship with the 'Cons in TFP. When they're awesome, they make me squee forever, but when they're not, RAGE.

this seemed to suggest he would be a competent lieutenant with clever schemes, not a woobie buttmonkey
He is a competent lieutenant with clever schemes, though. And he's also the buttmonkey - because he brings it upon himself. I don't think this is a contradiction at all. In fact, it's something that he has in common with the G1 and TFA versions. A big part of Starscream's character has always been that he could be really, really badass if he didn't screw over his own plans out of overconfidence, or freaking out, or not knowing when to shut up. I don't think it makes him contradictory, I think it makes him a complex character.

It's the same with Megatron. He's a fearsome, competent warlord who's clearly going crazy.

I understand fandom disliking these protrayals, sure. It's all a matter of taste. But while I think TFP has many flaws, I don't think this is one of them. To be honest it surprises me that when we get characters with more than one side to them, a lot of the fans seem to not want that. I'd find a Starscream without his buttmonkey side incredibly boring. What makes him one of my favorite characters is precisely that he has all that potential but he self-sabotages himself all the time.

He is a competent lieutenant with clever schemes, though. And he's also the buttmonkey - because he brings it upon himself. I don't think this is a contradiction at all.

Hmm, yeah, you're right. I don't so much mean he has to be one or the other; like you, I like the idea that he gets in his own way due to ego and overconfidence. Flaws are a good thing. And so is humor, and damn, is Steve Blum funny.

I just think that it's overkill. I think that a character like Knock Out is a good balance: funny, clever, and occasionally kicks his own ass. But Starscream has these whole arcs of long stretches of buttmonkeydom, and it makes some people leather pants him terribly (all the fangirls who seem to think he'd be a slightly dickish nice guy if not for Big Bad Megatron) and other people get disgustedly impatient (me.)

I feel the same way about Megatron. I like some of his failures being due to his own crazy. But I think when he so obviously shoots himself in the foot so much, it starts to diminish the character. There's a fine line between a flaw and a Stop Making My Face Hit My Desk.

I can see your point about overkill, yes. I actually enjoy Starscream's buttmonkeydom, to be honest, but that's a matter of taste; and I agree that there's a fine line, and TFP doesn't always know where it stands on that, I think. I love the show as a whole, but I do think that sometimes it doesn't know where in the "light-hearted vs. dark" balance it stands. So I can see how it can get annoying.

I guess that part of the reason that I'm not surprised or bothered by this is that I don't really expect the cartoon continuities to fall very far on the serious side. We've got the comics for the more serious, politics-focused versions. The cartoons go more for the "played for laughs" side, even when there's a lot of darkness in the background - look at the third season of TFA, por example. I think that's a really clever move from Hasbro, to be honest, that the different 'verses also have different tones. More people buying stuff, heh.

Also, wow, we've just had a civil and reasoned conversation about Starscream. I think my faith in this fandom just went up.

I actually enjoy Starscream's buttmonkeydom, to be honest, but that's a matter of taste;

I would enjoy it as occasional comic relief (or as fatal-flaw-arrogance plot points SOMETIMES), but I am not a fan of it in general. I prefer badass- competent-queen Screamer.

TFP doesn't always know where it stands on that, I think. I love the show as a whole, but I do think that sometimes it doesn't know where in the "light-hearted vs. dark" balance it stands.

I agree. I don't like that inconsistency at all, though I truly love TFP and am generally quite impressed with it.

I guess that part of the reason that I'm not surprised or bothered by this is that I don't really expect the cartoon continuities to fall very far on the serious side.

Makes sense. I'm surprised and bothered to some extent because the darker, more serious tone makes me expect a stepped-up game. As does the age of many of us in the fandom -- they really aren't, to my mind, JUST writing for kids any more.

And a big part of this is a personal thing about me. I'm a very, very big fan of (many) Megatron(s) and I take that more seriously than I probably should. (I occasionally have someone call him Buckethead in my fics precisely to remind myself not to take it all so seriously sometimes.) I mean, he's a villain, and I don't like seeing that minimized, and yes, I know he's not exactly the best written villain ever anyway. But I much prefer versions of him that are regal and imposing and inspiring and Lawful Evil, like TFA Megatron or Megatron in the Origin comics.

So I'm torn about his crazy (and about how he's often depicted treating Starscream. I have no problem with creepy discipline that's kinda twisted -- he is a villain and a dictator, after all -- but endless abuse portrayed really darkly disappoints me.) It messes with something core to how I see him -- but it's also believable, understandable, and not a re-hash of something someone else did (well, that isn't true exactly either -- it's Galvatron, just not all at once.) I can deal with it in small doses, particularly if there's a reason behind it that I can understand. Like his obsession with Optimus -- that's personal and understandable to me, and I can see it being a place for a sanity-crack. I can also see the dark energon thing up to a point -- it could be part-obsession and part "high risk high reward" leading him to court crazy. But the flat out nuts stuff? That disappoints me. I don't LIKE Galvatron, goddamn it. ;-)

So to me, there are things I like about it very much but there are also calls I wouldn't make. And when I feel those calls are coupled with weak or unclear plot or writing, I feel disappointed, even though I love the show. I hope that makes sense.

Also, wow, we've just had a civil and reasoned conversation about Starscream.

Yeah, I noticed that too. *gives us a prize* XD

I think my faith in this fandom just went up.

I think part of it's that this isn't Tumblr, but my age or my bias might be showing ;-)

Ah, well, there goes taste again. I adore cartoon!G1!Starscream the same way I adore Wile E Coyote. I think it was a very good call, given TFP's tone, that he isn't always like that and he only reaches those extremes when he's already freaking out. But I do like Prime's balance. He's there to be played for laughs for a while, and then all of a sudden he does something scarily clever and competent and reminds everyone of how dangerous he really is. But, then again, that's all subjective.

they really aren't, to my mind, JUST writing for kids any more.
Not just for kids, definitely. The references alone prove it. We're still not the main target demographic, though, and while "it's for kids" certainly doesn't excuse bad or inconsistent writing, there are conventions of the genre that we're going to have to live with. I highly doubt they'll ever go really serious. (And I like that better than the darkness of the comics, but that's just me.)

But I much prefer versions of him that are regal and imposing and inspiring and Lawful Evil, like TFA Megatron or Megatron in the Origin comics.
Oh, I see how this particular Megatron might annoy you then. I get the feeling that TFP!Megatron is pretty much G1!Megatron taken seriously - it's not the eighties anymore so he's not that over-the-top, and thankfully we don't have to deal with "status quo is god" anymore, but the temper and, well, some of the flat out nuts too.

Haha, as much as I love Tumblr for the shiny, it's pretty terrible for this kind of discussion.

G1 Starscream in almost all comics? Armada Starscream?
Also nonny said they were aware of other Starscreams being losers.

For me it's so bad since TFP Megatron is portrayed as brutal, crazy and no-nonsense. A whiny loser Starscream just bounces off diferently on such a Megatron.

In the G1 cartoon and TFA both Megatrons had much more funny banter with their respective Starscreams. It was more light-hearted than TFP.

Also nonny said they were aware of other Starscreams being losers.
I know. That's why I'm confused by this attitude (in fandom in general, not just with anon above). I think it's... naive, for lack of a better word, to expect one of the most popular characters in a mainstream cartoon to resemble the comics versions more than the versions from the previous mainstream cartoons.

I don't think TFP!Starscream is only a whiny loser, but I explain that part better above.

As for the different tone: yes, it's true that TFP is darker. I still don't see how this means Starscream can't get played for laughs at all.

But, well, I suppose this is going to be an "agree to disagree" case because clearly everyone has very strong opinions on this already.

IDW Starscream in All Hail Megatron, too. THAT was an interesting relationship. Megatron actually respected him, without it diminishing their rivalry or making them not seem like themselves.

The "you are the one who fails to see that, Starscream, not me" speech in that still gives me chills.

Personally, why I prefer TFA Starscream is that although he's just as much of a failure, he still remains egotistical, prideful, and does not put up with anyone's crap and just keeps on trucking while sporting that attitude.

TFP Starscream has his moments, but he spends like half of it whimpering and reduced into a pale shadow of himself (specifically his Season One self). This is the same Starscream who viciously murdered Cliffjumper in the first episode, then around Season Two, started whimpering around Silas for no reason other than the plot wanting to make Silas look threatening (even more dubious because the episode before had SS all up in Silas' business).

Though I actually liked Starscream shaking his hips in that episode; it's funny!

Oh, yes, if like TFA best I can see how this one bothers you. Like I said up there about Megatron, I think they're more or less "G1 taken seriously". TFA went in a different direction.

That said, I always got the impression that most of his whining and whimpering was supposed to be fake. Look at his fight with Arcee, for example, where he turned it around at the last moment. I think a big part of it is an act on his part to get away with stuff. Or when Dreadwing is threatening him - he stops to go "oh, you know about that" in his normal voice and then turns it up to eleven again.

ETA: ... and I'm still

laurus_nobilis but didn't realize I was logged into my RP account, heh.

Edited 2012-11-09 13:15 (UTC)

(Sorry, I'm the anon from above, just forgot to put my username the first time. O_O)

The Arcee one was an epic crowning moment for Starscream, but keep in mind it was for that one specific moment. Every other scene had Starscream whimpering. I'm aware he was down on his luck at that point, but there was no indication prior to the Arcee scene that convinced me his every begging and pleading was nothing but just that.

And there's also the Silas example I stated above: In "Operation Bumblebee: Part 1", Starscream was at his best as he bargained with Silas and showed he was his own bot and looked down on these humans. In "Part 2", he completely whimpers under Silas for no reason other than to make the human look threatening. There's no explanation for this; they just do it.

And then there's the whole "Oh, did you know I killed Cliffjumper?" excuse. Way to tarnish a character's death that had an overall impact on the series AND an awesome scene, Screamer. Every time he says that, it's clear he's grasping for straws and the more he repeated it, the pathetic he got. (I'm aware that Season Two likely had this mind when Starscream struck out on his own, but well, same opinion with TFA Starscream who ended up in a similar situation).

And etctera ectera (I will not list and/or dig too much because I don't need to be anymore insane than I am now XD), but I think it may be a narrative issue for me. A lot of the time, when a character acts a certain behavior, it usually will be that certain behavior and the plot won't indicate it's anything but. TFP isn't a subtle show (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing). Starscream may be sneaky, but TFP usually tells us what he's going to do and how he's going to act, so that's why whenever he whimpers, I will assume he is whimpering. It's actually why I loved both "Inside Job" and "Patch" because I think it returned him to form - he showed those Omega Keys to Megatron LIKE A BOSS. >:D

On an unrelated note, it's funny you mention TFP is "G1 taken seriously" because I agree. That's actually one of the major reasons why I have such a huge problem with TFP, but that's another bitching for another day. ^_^;

I sure hope it didn't really happen, because it was ridiculous. I assumed what we saw was simply how Starscream remembered it. True the actual scene back in Darkness Rising cuts off just before, but we later see the drones second-guessing/back-talking him, so a spontaneous show of support when Megatron has just died is unlikely.

Megatron isn't the smartest mech, so I'm going to continue to happily believe he was just wrong XD

I didn't think it was a show of support. I thought it was a "fuck, guess we better humor this damn fool."

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. The whole scene was so excruciatingly embarrassing and ridiculous I never thought it could have been intended as "real" /:

I viewed it as one of Starscream's daydreams. There were instances throughout the episode where Scream muttered "I'm thinking out loud again, aren't I?" after scenes like that.

Thanks for explaining! :)

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[ SECRET POST #2137 ]

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