[ SECRET POST #2161 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2161 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 098 secrets from Secret Submission Post #309.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cloud_riven]

What's the difference? If it's choosing not to care for one of those, that's pretty much wilful ignorance :|a I
f Delisle isn't an ally anyways, that really is up to her. I don't see everyone as potential conquests of conversion or whatever, You can't assume they will be receptive to what you have to say, just because you say something in kinder terms (just as it's also wrong to assume personal attacks or threats would also make a point).

I'm sorry that it feels like sjws essentially beat you to people, and sour folk's impressions of general sj. I find they spread misinformation more than they do simply vent annoyingly, and that is harmful, especially when the response to them becomes ridiculing their actual points too. But bigotry isn't new, it's been around since forever, and they're not to blame. It's cool that you are willing to keep talking to stubborn people, seriously. I view it as effective as talking to a wall, and not worth the time to assume everyone says crude things because they simply don't know any better. OP's mjh and your Delisle are adults. They know better.

[nyxelestia]

I'm not saying bigotry is new - in fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. Most people grow up not quite realizing that there is a problem concerning gays and trans people, and how extensive racist and sexist problems really are. It doesn't occur to them, hence the neutrality. It's not willful ignorance because these people have no idea that they're even missing anything in the first place. I mean, most of us who aren't part of a given minority had to eventually, at some point, be taught the problems of that minority. (i.e. a trans lesbian who is white will not have run into racism herself and probably had to be taught some of the problems and terminology, but the others - gender, trans, and gay issues - she might have been taught and might have been picked up from being part of those communities).

That's where the neutrality comes from - not realizing there is a problem in the first place or how extensive that problem really is. People use words because they hear the people around them using them, and often have no idea about the history of these words - after all, it's not like they look up the history of every word they've used ever to make sure it's okay. Most kids under a certain age these days - I'd say my own age or even a little older than it, in some regions - have no idea that the word "retarded" was actually once used as a non-insulting reference to mentally disabled people. I'm in college and just last semester, I had a teacher pause a documentary from the 1980s to explain this to students, some of whom have never run into that concept before that point. As far as most of these kids know "retarded" is just a word for "stupid". And they're not going to look up the history of the word. Why bother? They already know how it use and that's what counts, the same way most of us wouldn't look up the history of the word "giraffe" or "table" when we first hear it, we just start using it as it is presented to us.

That's how they hear it used, that's how they will use it, and that's how they will keep on using it until someone doesn't just say "it's a bad word" but why it's a bad word. Yes, some or even most people will keep going on using it, but there are many who will stop once they start to grasp the severity of the harm their language can cause.

I don't want SJWs to be the first contact with SJ those people have - because instead of becoming allies or even just toning down harmful language, they'll turn against us all and use that kind of language even more and start to hate minorities more out of bitterness built up from such negative interactions in the first place.

[cloud_riven]

Privilege. That's what we're both referring to. Half of what you say is right, that because these folk don't experience what it's like to be other, they may not be aware of a problem (hence not having to care). But once they are, and they are thanks to the news (or when someone tells them they just used a slur, and why it's not cool), they check their privilege. Or don't (choosing not to care).

Sure, a lot of people don't study the etymology of the words they use. And a lot of people don't care either way. Bullshit like, "oh but words chaaaange and i didn't mean it THAT way! don't be so oversensitive." Not that it doesn't work, explaining the history and meaning, but definitely not every time. A group of college students are more likely to be open I'd assume, considering the point is to challenge what you and others think. A group of douchebags who don't like being told they're being a specific kind of douchebag? Nah.

"I don't want SJWs to be the first contact with SJ those people have...and start to hate minorities more out of bitterness..."

Are you kidding? Easily affected folk that decide to be racist to so stick it to those meanie SJWs are the kind of people you think would have been your ally? And loud angry voices aren't the only or first ones available to listen to. But hey, generalising and lumping everyone ever into a convenient PC crowd to scoff at is easier than doing your own research or stepping back to ask yourself, "hey. i seem to have upset a lot of people. was it something i said?" The ball's in their court to come to their own conclusions, whether or not they agree or disagree, or just filter in what's easier to respond to. It's just as generalising as the people who finds women crazy bitches because they've had bad experiences with them, or the person who hates immigrants because ooh how annoying those immigrant customers are, and so on.

I want SJWs to stop too, because I don't want actual allies thinking that attacking, threatening, etc. people who slip up is somehow a force for good. Not just because people are going to think I'm just like them and dislike me, or purposefully spite me, because that's a given (eg: "feminazi" and "too politically correct").

[nyxelestia]

the kind of people you think would have been your ally?

Yes, actually. People forget that when you're not a minority, SJ issues are not the center of your life, and often aren't even in the peripheral zone. Being an ally or not is a whim for those kinds of people, and quite frankly sometimes people are just easily swayed or affected. I'd rather they be swayed in my favor rather than against it.

people are going to think I'm just like them and dislike me

Which is, again, the point I'm trying to make - the Feminazi trope social conservatives love to use to discredit real feminists is really hard to disprove when SJWs are going around acting exactly like that trope. They don't accomplish anything in favor of feminism (or any other social issue) and just add fuel to the bigots' fire.

[cloud_riven]

They're not the center of mine either, despite being important to me. But you want to assume everyone lives in a vacuum? That's very optimistic of you. Not buying it.

As if an annoying group is the reason people like Rush Limbaugh, iirc, even coined that term. They discredit because they disagree with these ideas. They pretend you're censoring them, and pull out whatever misconception they want to apparently prove their points. As far as I'm reading so far, you seem to be getting at sjws doing more harm than the bigots that fuel that fire.

[nyxelestia]

I'm not saying every person who uses bigoted language casually is an ally in disguise. I'm just saying that what allies there are among those people, we lose every time we immediately call them a bigot instead of telling them your language is bigoted and harmful.

Again, most of us within these minorities probably grew up using some variation of bigoted language before we learned better, and most of us probably grew up with a few stereotypes before we learned better. Some people learn this stuff later than others. When they do learn this stuff, I'd rather it be someone reasonable who will at least take a moment to stop and say, "I know you think it's just a word, but using it is harmful. Not hurtful - harmful. Here's why, and please try not to use it again," instead of immediately shouting "OMG you fucking racist/sexist/homophobe/whatever". I don't think every person I stop and talk to will listen, I don't even think most will - but the few that will listen are above and beyond a good reason to take a second before I get my rage on.

Talking gets us all a lot more friends than yelling.

[(Anonymous)]

There's always a relevant xkcd <3