fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2187 ]

[ SECRET POST #2187 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2187 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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05. [repeat]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

06. [SPOILERS for Once Upon a Time]

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07. [SPOILERS for amazing spiderman]

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08. [SPOILERS for Nu52 Stormwatch]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

09. [WARNING for rape, sexual assault, gore]

[SCP Foundation wiki]

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10. [WARNING for rape]

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11. [WARNING for abuse]

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12. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]

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13. [WARNING for rape]

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14. [WARNING for violence, RL deaths]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (not broken, but being reported as malicious?) - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I'm okay with fiction containing all of the elements that you mention, and even enjoy them a lot of times. What bothers me about this series, specifically, is that a lot of the fans that I've encountered like to go "NO YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. IT'S ACCURATE FOR THE PERIOD." when anyone brings up that things like the blatant racism, misogyny, rape, violence, etc. bother them.

It's also accurate for that type of setting for a lot of the characters to have rotten teeth and be covered in fleas and horse shit, but you don't see people bitching when details like that aren't included. Enjoying the series is fine, but don't act like people who point this shit out are just being obtuse or overlooking GRRM's enlightened brilliance. It's fantasy and, more importantly, fiction. He didn't have to bring in any of those elements, he chose to. And it's okay to chose that, but don't act like those things are a requirement for a good story.

It's also accurate for that type of setting for a lot of the characters to have rotten teeth and be covered in fleas and horse shit, but you don't see people bitching when details like that aren't included.

Are we reading the same series? I'm pretty sure GRRM wouldn't have skimped out on something like that.

In fact, there are lot of characters with rotten teeth in the books.

And even in the movies, there's a rather greater than normal amount of filth and horse shit on screen. (As someone who is sick and fed up with her fantasy looking like opening day at the Renaissance Fest, I am highly pro-horse poop in this context.)

It's also accurate for that type of setting for a lot of the characters to have rotten teeth and be covered in fleas and horse shit

Um, and that's included in the books as well.

Actually, that world would not have been nearly as dirty as most people make it out to be. And their teeth would have been less rotten than you think, particularly non-nobility. Sugar wasn't something they had often.

That said, the secret maker is using a TV show logo, so perhaps s/he means how most people are fairly pretty and clean?

Well, the nobles are fairly clean. But if you end up in a jail cell or hiding among war refugees or some such thing, yeah, lice and such show up. At this point in the TV show, I'd say people are about as clean or dirty as their surroundings imply they would be.

I think it's more that it is kind of fitting to the overall tone of the series that those things are included. It's a crapsack world. More than that, it's a bit of a deconstruction, a depressing slap in the face for anyone who read fantasy at ten and wanted to be a knight. That's kind of the whole point.

The fleas, dung, rotten teeth, lousy medical, and all the rest seem pretty well-included to me. It's a gross, unpleasant world.

"ACCURATE FOR THE PERIOD"

I fucking hate that excuse. What period? THIS IS A FANTASY WORLD. IT DOES NOT EXIST. The only reason the world of the book resembles Medieval England is because the author chose to make it so, just as he chose to make dragons and zombies and giants and whateverthefuck the Others are, and just as he chose to make the world misogynistic as fuck.

I usually agree with this. But I think with this series, it is different because the author is basically writing a commentary both on a specific period of history (as opposed to being a generic fantasy world) and also showing how this sort of world would really be like. Meaning that there is going to be racism and sexism and rape because that is what a medieval world based on this time period would be like. He's commenting on other fantasy and how things are often sugar coated and such.

So I think the "accurate for the period" comment works for these books even though it really annoys me when it is used in other instances.

There's a clear visual connection to a period that existed in human history. You're right, a lot of the more fantastical elements didn't exist.

However.

To completely dismiss the elements of human history that make the period in the fantastical world more identifiable? That's a massive mistake.

Internal Consistency

Adding a few biological differences in fantasy races that don't really interact with the main story is different from creating a world with humans at a primitive stage of development in it, and then changing how human societies behave at a primitive stage of development. Grubby, dirt-eating peasant societies aren't civilized and enlightened, deal with it.

Also, the whole point of the series is a deconstruction of the medieval fantasy tropes, and chivalry. You can't deconstruct chivalry without taking an honest look at what happens to women in cultures where they are disenfranchised and have to rely on chivalry instead. And to do that, you have to acknowledge that rape happens.

When and how does GRRM ever "deconstruct" misogyny/rape in ASoIaF, though? I quit in the middle of book 3 and never saw it happen. I've gotten the impression that Sansa and Dany's storylines might be heading in that direction, but...

Cersei is bitter and twisted, mainly because she's denied any chance to excel because, as a woman, she's just a brood cow - and she has to watch her twin brother be granted everything she's denied. Lysa Tully murdered her husband because even if he was kind to her, she hated the fact that she was forced to marry him and forced to abort her first child, instead of being able to marry the man she loved. Mirri Maz Duur kills both Drogo and Dany's unborn child because even Dany's kindness to her doesn't outweigh the fact that Dany's the queen of the tribe of assholes that raped her. Dany repeatedly says that she'll never permit slavery because her brother sold her to Drogo and that's not something that should happen to anyone. Arianne Martell attempts a coup against her father when he doesn't see her as an equal to be brought in on his plans regarding her future and marriage, and instead expects her to meekly follow along.

Cersei and Lysa are two of the books' most-hated characters, whether or not that was GRRM's intention. Either way, he doesn't seem to give either of them much dignity and a lot of their contentions with society can easily come off as shrewish hysteria. He seems to prefer female characters who don't "whine" about their sexual abuse (i.e. Dany and Sansa), or at least, they get a better deal.

I just don't think any of those are examples of rape being deconstructed, they're just examples of women who are pissed off their situation.

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visp - 2012-12-29 03:52 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-12-29 04:18 (UTC) - Expand

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visp - 2012-12-29 04:29 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-12-29 23:31 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-12-29 06:21 (UTC) - Expand

Almost all of Cersei's chapters deal with misogyny and how living in a patriarchal society has affected her.

are you suggesting that primitive human societies are by their very nature misogynistic? Because history would argue with you. It might be common, but it's certainly not the ONLY way it ever worked. I'm guessing that you assume that women are automatically weaker, then, if they're always subjugated?

No, history would say I'm right and that a few exceptions do not disprove a rule. Also, due to sexual dimorphism, yes, women tend to be physically weaker than men, which has historically meant they got the shittier end of the stick in the more primitive societies, where being able to club the most people on the head meant you were boss.

I think the prompter meant you are acting as if all human civilizations were patriarchal and assholes to their women. That attitude generally only applies if you are looking at the European/Euroasian region for the last couple thousand years - which, to be fair, many Westerners, particularly Americans, are stuck doing because the overwhelmingly vast majority of their "world" history education only really teaches them about ancient Europe, which is on its own extensively patriarchal.

If you look at all of human history all over the globe, the human race is quite a bit more egalitarian than that - there are plenty of matriarchal societies, or civilizations which didn't really care all that much about gender/sex/ect. The matriarchal or don't-give-a-fuck civilizations just tend to be not that well known because of the Western world's focus on, well, the Western world.

Pretty much the reason I tend to refer to my high school World History Class as "World" History Class, and why I say the only difference between it and European history was the timescale.

(no subject)

visp - 2012-12-30 07:45 (UTC) - Expand

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nyxelestia - 2012-12-30 09:59 (UTC) - Expand

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visp - 2012-12-31 00:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

nyxelestia - 2012-12-31 01:46 (UTC) - Expand

I don't think that excuse would be so bad if GRRM didn't seem to revel in all that stuff.

You're right, he definitely should have written his book as though it occurred in Medieval Europe, but left out all the elements of the Medieval times that could potentially hurt any of the characters or anybody reading it. So basically the Medieval era without rape, murder, racism, misogyny, homophobic, torture, etc., because that makes a lot of sense.

There's an article (here is a excerpt: http://mastermayhem.livejournal.com/735268.html and here is the original - you have to log in to read everything: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137363/kelly-devries/game-of-thrones-as-history) which examines the much-praised "accuracy".

It's also accurate for that type of setting for a lot of the characters to have rotten teeth and be covered in fleas and horse shit, but you don't see people bitching when details like that aren't included.

Because rape and misogyny are interesting to read about, when handled properly (and I believe he does handle them quite well, despite what others believe).

Rotten teeth and horse shit are not.

Then people should just say that they find those things interesting to read about in that context and with the way that he handles them. There's really no need to use the "it's accurate" line to justify their inclusion in the books (or liking that the books includes them), when the books actually aren't that accurate to begin with, and a lot of details that could be included for the sake of accuracy are overlooked because they just wouldn't be fun or interesting to read about for most people.

Have you even read the books? There's a ton of that in there.

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