fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2188 ]

[ SECRET POST #2188 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2188 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #313.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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I think you're probably making a bigger deal out of it than you need to.

What someone finds romantic in fiction can be a hell of a lot different than what they find romantic in real life.

How many people find Romeo and Juliette dying because they can't live without each other super romantic? I would slap their dumb asses in real life if someone actually though of killing themselves for that reason.

Not to be pedantic, but Romeo and Juliette died due to a tragic (comic?) misunderstanding. They were planning to trick their respective families into thinking that Juliette died so that she wouldn't be forced to marry Paris, but Romeo didn't get the memo in time, so he thought she really was dead. By the time Juliette woke up in the tomb, Romeo had already killed himself and Paris.

And I'm going to be totally pedantic and say that everything you said there supports the "dying because they can't live without each other" thing.

And the tragedy is that if they had just talked to their parents, they could have publicly married each other and the whole thing could have been averted.

Juliette did talk to her parents. Their response was, "You're going to marry Paris and you're going to like it!"

Seriously, the main crux of the play was the feud between the Montagues and the Capulets! It took the death of Romeo and Juliette to get them to reconcile, there was no way they'd allow a public marriage!

Her talk was just "I, for no reason, don't want to marry Paris." "I've already married and bedded Romeo" would have gotten a lot of swearing, but at the end of the day, what can you do? Capulet stomps down to Montague's house and offers a deal where they both go to the Prince and agree to make peace by marrying their kids together, if the Prince'll recind Romeo's banishment. The prince agrees because it's the best way to stop the feud and if the Capulets are willing to forgive Tybalt's death, who is he to say no?

Shotgun weddings and "well, we already banged, so deal" marriage arrangements are time-honored.

And if, before that, after the balcony scene, Romeo had gone to his dad and said "Hey, I'd like to give up my womanizing and marry Capulet's only kid," his Dad would have made the arrangements. Remember, at that point, Capulet likes him enough to let him crash his parties, and is looking for someone to marry his daughter off to.

I think the more likely outcome would have been "Capulet stomps down to Montague's house and demands Romeo's head, then disowns Juliette as a harlot and a traitor to the family."

Possibly, but they did legally marry, and Capulet has only has one child. Unless he wants to cause huge public scandal, he takes the path that saves face and is politically expedient.

Besides, even if he does kick her out, so what? She goes to the the priest and asks for a lift to Mantua and reunites with Romeo there.

Unless the Capulets succeed in assassinating Romeo.

(no subject)

visp - 2012-12-29 21:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-29 22:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

visp - 2012-12-29 22:21 (UTC) - Expand

would have gotten a lot of swearing

And then she would've been sent to a convent or killed.

Yeah, it's a Shakespeare tragedy. The whirlpool of suffering would have drawn Romeo and Juliette in no matter what -- this ain't no As You Like It!

Honor killings weren't that big over there - and sending a daughter to a convent is a complete waste of resources, not to mention a great scandal. Publicly approving her marriage to Romeo is financially, socially, and politically a good move.

It still would have been smarter for him to ask for her hand the traditional way, and not elope in the first place, but the odds are still in favor of the wedding being grudgingly approved at this stage.

You're delusional. The most likely outcome is Juliet beaten half dead, and shipped off to a monastery if she were still alive a few days later.

I think

visp is dead-set on applying her modern sensibilities to a tragedy devoid of sensibility, so we should probably let it rest.

And the tragedy is that if they had just talked to their parents, they could have publicly married each other and the whole thing could have been averted.

Perhaps you should actually read Romeo and Juliet before you pretend to know anything about it? Just a thought.

*le sigh* The feud is between the servants and hangers-on. Capulet himself doesn't care - he lets Romeo and his friends stay at his party.

Content thee, gentle coz, let him alone;
He bears him like a portly gentleman;
And, to say truth, Verona brags of him
To be a virtuous and well-govern'd youth:
I would not for the wealth of all the town
Here in my house do him disparagement:
Therefore be patient, take no note of him:
It is my will, the which if thou respect,
Show a fair presence and put off these frowns,
And ill-beseeming semblance for a feast.

Later, from Lady Capulet:

Tybalt, my cousin! O my brother's child!
O prince! O cousin! husband! O, the blood is spilt
O my dear kinsman! Prince, as thou art true,
For blood of ours, shed blood of Montague.
O cousin, cousin!

...

He is a kinsman to the Montague;
Affection makes him false; he speaks not true:
Some twenty of them fought in this black strife,
And all those twenty could but kill one life.
I beg for justice, which thou, prince, must give;
Romeo slew Tybalt, Romeo must not live.

You can't deny that the Capulets' opinion of Romeo greatly decreased after the Tybalt incident. Also, see how the normally-gentle Capulet's attitude abruptly changes after Juliette tries to postpone the wedding with Paris:

Hang thee, young baggage! disobedient wretch!
I tell thee what: get thee to church o' Thursday,
Or never after look me in the face:
Speak not, reply not, do not answer me;
My fingers itch. Wife, we scarce thought us blest
That God had lent us but this only child;
But now I see this one is one too much,
And that we have a curse in having her:
Out on her, hilding!

Oh, Lady Capulet's still gonna hate him, sure, but it's not her call. Lord Capulet has scolded Tybalt for picking fights with Romeo before, he knows that it's not entirely Romeos fault.

And yeah, he'd have added a few extra paragraphs to that diatribe if she told him the truth about marrying Romeo, but at the end of the day, if the choice is public scandal or a discreet wedding, what can you do? It's still a better chance than taking a roofie from a priest.

Putting way too much faith in Lord Capulet, here.

Your literature teachers have a lot to answer for if this is your reading of R&J. Capulet not wanting to start a mob war by killing Romeo at his party =/= Capulet being cool with Romeo deflowering his little girl.

But he would have been cool with Romeo respectfully asking for her hand in marriage.

(no subject)

tabaqui - 2012-12-30 02:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

visp - 2012-12-30 07:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

tabaqui - 2012-12-30 16:16 (UTC) - Expand

No, they died due to killing themselves. Romeo could have mourned and moved on with his life, and he would have found out Juliet was still alive when she came seeking him. Even if he decided to be a knob and off himself, Juliet could have mourned and moved on with her life, free from the insanity of both their families thanks to her fake death. Their suicides were decisions they didn't have to make, that weren't necessary to prevent a fate worse than death, therefore it was all bullshit. And that's fine, I think we were always supposed to slap our foreheads and go "idiots, all of them" at the end, but too many people sigh and go "how romantic, they're together forever", which is...stupid.

So much this. I always took it as a cautionary tale about how a) making assumptions about people before you actually know them and b) people should fucking talk to each other before jumping to conclusions.

They killed themselves because of a tragic/comic misunderstanding.

Also, Romeo had just killed Paris before entering Juliette's tomb, so there wasn't much of a life waiting for him if he didn't get out of Verona quickly enough.

Juliet could have mourned and moved on with her life, free from the insanity of both their families thanks to her fake death.

Young girl traveling on her own in premodern Italy, that's sure going to work out great!

Anyway, I think the audience's reaction was supposed to be "If only there wasn't that stupid family feud!"

I don't get what people find so romantic about Romeo and Juliette's deaths as well. Or even the way they fall in love. Romeo and Juliette is more a cautionary tale about young love and the dumb ideas young people have about love. That's the tragedy of the tale as well as meaningless feuds and the inability to see past our hate for one another.
The most romantic elements of Romeo and Juliette is the poetry and yearning to want to be together, but if you really take a step back, it's just puppy love. Love at first sight, which Friar Lawrence scolds Romeo about. He only agreed to marrying the two because he thought it would end the Montagues and Capulets feud.

But to each their own, I guess.

I always read R+J as more of a comedy, personally. Since, well, even Shakespeare's comedies could have deaths in them, and the actual conflict between the Montagues and Capulets was resolved in the end.

I did find it kinda funny that the only people who died were the ones who seemingly deliberately got themselves killed out of idiocy. Pretty sure that was intended.

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