[ SECRET POST #2188 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2188 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #313.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[elialshadowpine]

"perhaps because you're older"

My ex, who is trans and in his 50s, has run into a lot of this. The terms that were used when he came out in the late 70s are pretty different. I have had to explain to him why people were getting upset at him for, say, referring to his diagnosis as trans (because when he came out it was a diagnosis) or that he identifies as a transman (no space).

Ironically, what this mostly seems to have accomplished is not punishing bigots, but forcing fellow minority members out of support spaces.

[(Anonymous)]

Thisthisthis, omg I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's important. One of the things the status quo tries the hardest to disrupt is activists learning firsthand from each other, and especially from older, more experienced ones. What better way to do that than by convincing each generation fresh out of college that the way their predecessors think and talk is oppressive/bad/wrong?

[(Anonymous)]

Even better when the kids do their best to convince eachother of that. Status quo just has to sit back and laaaaaugh.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh yes, this. And the worst part is that there are people who will actually use the in-group disagreement and bickering brought on by these types of generational and linguistic differences as some sort of proof that the minority group in question is partially responsible for people being shitty to them, because they can't even agree about things as a group and are therefore partially responsible for their own oppression. Also, arguing over crap like that takes away from time that could be spent actually focusing on issues and change. Words are important, definitely, but they are not the end all be all of activism.

[elialshadowpine]

Plus the harm it causes on an individual basis. If the atmosphere of the online queer friendly spaces I had found when I was 17 and just starting to realize my sexuality had been like they are now? Good goddess. I've started to withdraw from talking about my sexuality in some of the communities I am on that are supposedly queer friendly just because of the infighting and judgement. I worry a lot for people who are at a point I was at many years ago and are being driven off and intimidated by the hostility.

[(Anonymous)]

I can totally understand that, although it's a sad state of affairs. I've personally developed the habit of using queer in some spaces if I'm not sure how saying I'm bisexual will be received.

[(Anonymous)]

Funny thing about queer is that it and of itself is a word with all SORTS of baggage.

Yes, it's been reclaimed for the gender and orientation contexts. But, honestly, as far as implications I feel like queer has a heck of a lot more negative ones than bisexual.

I am genderqueer. However, I wince to call myself that because in my mental lexicon "queer" = abnormal.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I totally agree that there are a lot of negative connotations to queer. It took me quite awhile to feel comfortable using it, and I still have moments where it kind of makes me cringe. I do think that it has its uses, especially when it comes to being more inclusive when talking about things on a community-level and not having to type out a billion-letter acronym (and still worry that you're forgetting letters). But it also makes sense why some people don't want to use it, since it's not really a one-to-one correlation with being lesbian, gay, bi, trans, etc., and it does sort of lump everyone together as being the same in the name of solidarity, when really different parts of the community have really different experiences. There are also some political undertones to the term itself, along with the inherently negative implications that you pointed out, so I think it makes sense that it makes some people (and even some people who use it in certain contexts) uncomfortable.

On the personal front, I tend to find myself using it in spaces that are less familiar to me, or where I've gotten some sort of indication that I'll get some flack for saying I'm bi. If I say queer, most people aren't going to ask me to specify further and then give me the side-eye for being bi and therefore not queer enough or assume that I'm just experimenting or haven't found myself. I've found that the types of spaces where I'm most likely to encounter that kind of crap about being bi are also the types of spaces where I'm not going to get shit over using queer. Which honestly probably says a lot about different parts of the community and the role of language within them. Queer's not a term that I feel totally uncomfortable using to describe myself or anything, and I do think that it works well when you're talking about things at a broader level, but I think I would just use bi everywhere if I hadn't gotten crap over it in the past. It would be really nice if people would just learn to accept the labels that people use for themselves (or not use) and not worry so much about categorizing and sub-categorizing and fitting other people into a neat little box.

(Just out of curiosity, are there any other terms out there like genderqueer that don't use "queer"? I can see why it would be kind of awkward if you hated the word and the implications behind it, but didn't have a lot of other options. Or at least options that people will understand without a lengthy explanation.)

Re: AYRT

[thene]

where I've gotten some sort of indication that I'll get some flack for saying I'm bi

Yeah I love being in ~inclusive, radical, non-oppressive~ spaces where biphobia is totally expected and condoned. :( It DOES say a lot about the community, doesn't it?

re. words other than genderqueer - I have a friend who identifies as an androgyne - I've also heard agender and neutrois fairly regularly.

[fuchsiascreams]

Ironically, what this mostly seems to have accomplished is not punishing bigots, but forcing fellow minority members out of support spaces.

Totally agree with this.

[thene]

Daisy (my favourite political blogger) occasionally likes to ask people how many female bloggers over 50 they subscribe to. I have learned SO much from her stories of activist history (including how much harm shibboleths can do to an activist movement), and that entire viewpoint gets completely missed by people who invent reasons to avoid listening to anyone over 30. It's very sad, and it's dividing us from our history.

[(Anonymous)]

My mother is in her 70s now and was one of the original feminists back when NOW was just getting started, and she was an activist too. She just shakes her head at a lot of what people try to pass as "feminism" these days because it runs so counter to what she and the other older women originally fought for. It's fascinating to listen to her stories, really.

[thene]

omg anon you can tell your mom THANK YOU from me, every day.

I worry about how much activist experience has been lost due to the experienced people getting jettisoned or sidelined. Activists can't learn from our mistakes, or our victories, if we've lost the people who were there when they happened.

[(Anonymous)]

This. The status quo has a vested interest in being able to teach our own history to us, with the most radical parts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_extraction) edited out. They can only do that as long as activists from different generations don't talk to each other.

Perennially re-defining all the terms and convincing people that anyone who doesn't use the right ones is *doing actual harm* seems to be working rather well. And when did university go from being a place where people hammered out what they wanted and how they should change the world ... to being a place where "women's studies," "minority studies," and "LGBT studies" hand down what eminent theorists in the subject are saying and thinking this year?

[kittenmommy]

I worry about how much activist experience has been lost due to the experienced people getting jettisoned or sidelined.

But they're OMG OLD! Only the young people know everything and can therefore save the world!!!

I've been saying for years now that I'd love to be a teenager again, because then I'd know everything and have all the answers! :p

[(Anonymous)]

I think some of the changes are reasonable progression. One of the most interesting feminism discussion I had was with a radical feminist who did her university in 1960s. It was fascinating, because I know in the end we will not agree with one another, but knowing the context of why certain ideas were the most progressive at the time made lots of sense. It is about understanding people, and what we can do together to make the world a better place. Trying to shout down any disagreements is the exact opposite of that.

[kittenmommy]

Ironically, what this mostly seems to have accomplished is not punishing bigots, but forcing fellow minority members out of support spaces.

Yeah.

A trans woman I knew IRL continued using his male name and male pronouns to describe himself (which is why I'm using them now in this post).

This was nearly 30 years ago and I'm not in touch with him now, but I wonder 1) if he's still doing that and 2) if he is, what sort of reaction he's getting online (because let's face it, pretty much everyone is online now).