fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2196 ]

[ SECRET POST #2196 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2196 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 060 secrets from Secret Submission Post #314.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - empty image with a text comment ].
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10. http://i.imgur.com/nyJec.png

I haven't watched Torchwood yet so I don't know the quote you're referring to but as I get into Doctor Who for the first time I admit I have to ignore all the times when The Doctor talks about how awesome humanity is and how it will survive for so long. The show is entirely too optimistic so many ways that make it ridiculous.

Thing is, the show (I'm going to say New Who at this rate, but Classic Who does the same) contradicts his point at times, not just Torchwood. See: the failure of humanity to save themselves after the Doctor and Rose displace the Jagrafess, the Silurian/human negotiations and fallout in Series 5, the clear corruption inherent in the Time Agency, I could go on. I wouldn't say the Doctor loves humanity because he thinks they're flawless, I'd say he loves them in spite of their flaws.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-06 21:43 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 01:56 (UTC) - Expand

Gwen's big eyes.

I do know what you mean, but it's like Frank Capra, that sort of hopeful attitude that people will be good, and humanity is marvellous, when in reality it's more dystopia than utopia.

I want to believe it's good, but then awful things just go on and keep happening, and the world is pretty shit for millions of people.

Neither Dr. Who or Torchwood despite their attempts to generate a kind of general self-loathing in humans have made much of a convincing argument for me that humanity is the worst thing ever or that humans are inherently worst than the aliens that seem hell-bent on routinely attacking them. Maybe because the show seems to want to have it's cake and eat it too with this issue? And with some alien species like the daleks and the Master it's more a case that the only reason humanity is attacked is precisely because of its association with the Doctor.

their attempts to generate a kind of general self-loathing in humans

Um...what?

Torchwood I kind of get where you're coming from re: Children of Earth, but Doctor Who? Wut? Point out some examples plz?

I've got some philosophical differences with the Who-verse. In many ways it's both over forgiving and not nearly forgiving enough. In the end though, the Doctor is just one alien -- not a god -- and he does make mistakes. Giving him complete say and final judgement in what Earth does to save itself and protect it's interests makes no sense. Nothing in the show has lead me to believe that the Time Lords are more intrinsically enlightened -- simply more powerful and older.

What the hell does this comment have to do with the secret?

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(Anonymous) - 2013-01-06 22:47 (UTC) - Expand

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velvet_mace - 2013-01-06 22:49 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2013-01-06 22:53 (UTC) - Expand

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velvet_mace - 2013-01-06 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

I've noticed a lot of sci-fi shows have this 'oh, well, the evil alien overloads decided not to kill us all because Humanity is so very special and wonderful and awesome, wheee!'

And that's so very annoying.

I kind of agree with you. And more than that, I just want to say that it's really weird to me how opposed to the idea that humanity is not great this community is, and how angry it gets about it. It's just kind of strange to me, but people really do disagree with anyone who talks about the dark side of humanity.

/shrug

It's just really old news to me how many people think they're special brilliant snowflakes for being opposed to the idea that humanity isn't the worst thing ever.

hahahaha

You do realize that this is the same community that rabidly defended ASOIAF not a week and a half ago IIRC, right?

there's a difference in talking about the dark side of humanity versus insisting that there is no other side to humanity other than dark and that all humans (except of course the super special enlightened commenter) are worthless and should probably die or something. That's why people get bent out of shape when someone starts self-righteously bemoaning the ~inherent evil~ of their own damn species.

Noob! :D

(Besides, how would our Who-verse counterparts ever get a chance to improve if they got eaten by the Racnoss or something? Seems like you're advocating the idea that if a first-grader fails more than one test in a row, they should be expelled rather than kept in school to actually learn what they got wrong.)

Oh shut up. What are you, fourteen years old and just now realizing that the world isn't totally perfect and convinced this somehow means it's completely worthless and you're the only one smart enough to see it? If the Doctor saved our sorry asses, I'd be glad because that buys us more time to encourage our potential and become better.

Hear ya, anon, sometimes the discord between discourse and reality is jarring. But, really, one of the things that really drew me into the Whoniverse was its optimism. It points out humanity's flaws, too, but there is that underlying layer of hope that we have the potential to get better. When a lot of SF is going into the grimdark-everyone-is-a-selfish-asshole direction, it's kind of refreshing. I know I've definitely used, "what would the doctor think?" as a litmus test for decisions... If it inspires you to try to be a better person, there's nothing wrong with idealism in fiction.

I agree.

I feel bad for saying this, but ever since "Dalek" I've been really hankering for an episode where humans capture and do experiments on the Doctor (because he's an alien, after all) and torture him horribly in the process. This desire increased tenfold after watching "Midnight".

Of course, I'd also want humans to rescue him and help him and be furious about it afterwards, 'cause I like my humanity varied and complex, but it makes my inner h/c fangirl sad that when humans do awful things in Who, they rarely do awful things to the Doctor.

And it would be glorious to see him be inexplicably super-magnanimous and not hold a grudge against the people who tortured him, 'cause after all, he's old and has seen a lot and it would be like being tormented by bratty schoolkids for him, just more intensely disappointing and painful.

I don't even watch the show and I want this to happen. I love this kind of moral complexity in stories, and the Doctor having a magnanimous reaction would indeed be glorious.

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intrigueing - 2013-01-07 00:44 (UTC) - Expand

Shit I think this just bred with another plotbunny in my brain

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 01:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Shit I think this just bred with another plotbunny in my brain

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 04:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

riddian - 2013-01-07 01:11 (UTC) - Expand

I think that's the difference between Torchwood and Doctor Who, though.

With Torchwood we often saw the underbelly and the dark side of humanity,people we wouldn't really find deserving of help.

But with Doctor Who we often see the wonder, those parts of humanity that totally are worth saving.

The truth in probably somewhere in between, of course.

Uuuhhhhh... the human race is duping him? How? Most of humanity doesn't even know he exists, let alone ask him for help when things go wrong. The Doctor saves humanity because he wants to, not because the whole race is manipulating him into it.

Yes, humans have faults, and horrible ones too, but that doesn't stop us from being wonderful as well. Good and evil coexist within us, and that can be a very hopeful thing. I kind of thought that was one of the main points of the show.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 01:08 (UTC) - Expand

Slightly OT, but did anyone else really frickin' hate that quote from CoE? So melodramatic and passive aggressive. For one, a) it's not like they really had a choice - 10% of the children or the entire planet, take your pick, and b) it was only the government officials who were being such slimy lying scumbags, and they're hardly a representative sample.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 05:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2013-01-07 06:15 (UTC) - Expand

If you truly believe that humanity is so worthless, then there's a pretty easy way to remove one human from the equation.

Time Lords weren't perfect either. The Doctor himself is far from it. I think he sees, for lack of a better word, a companion in humanity.

Dude, have you seen a Time Lord? Their society sucks more than ours. Last I heard our leaders weren't trying to destroy the universe. Even before that, they were power hungry and arrogant and killed and destroyed entire planets without remorse. He still saved their lives whenever he could.

Humanity isn't just a blight but also the boon because life is not black and white.

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