[ SECRET POST #2213 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2213 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 042 secrets from Secret Submission Post #316.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - request for assistance ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Laughing at your inclusion of Tyrion here. If his heart is made of gold, it's the kind that Tywin Lannister was able to shit in the end.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you anon, you made me laugh.

[agnes_bean]

Yeah, this.

(Also, LOL).

[(Anonymous)]

Pyrite at best.

[(Anonymous)]

In the comparison to most of GRRM's characters though, anon?

I dunno. It's pretty fucking golden from where I'm standing. The only more arguably "good hearted" characters are the ones who are barely more than archetypes and sources of deus ex machina *cough*Jon Snow*cough*.

[(Anonymous)]

Sansa seems genuinely good-hearted, and she's not so much an archetype as a realistic subversion of one. She's prejudiced against ugly people, but that seems to be about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Sansa isn't good hearted, she's naive. She's extremely elitist for most of the first and second books, and almost totally self-absorbed.

If it seems like she means well, it's only because she wants to play the part of the fairy princess and experience all that entails (wealth, romance, legendary deeds). Because those same folk legends are often fables that contain moral messages, she has taken those lessons to heart... but only in the most unrealistic sense possible. For example, when she extolls that, "Knights should protect the weak and innocent." this is not because she feels that the weak and innocent deserve protecting, but because because it is the noble, fairytale, romantic ideal that she desires to see borne out in reality.

GRRM pretty much continuously points that out. Sansa, in most senses, is actually not a very good person when it comes down to it. She is simply less monstrous than many of her immediate peers.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is a common interpretation from people who immediately felt that by subverting the expectation of fairy tale princess, GRRM wanted to undo everything they were supposed to represent.

To my immediately memory, Sansa is the only character outside of Jon, Ned, and Dany that does good deeds. Saving Ser Dontos' life is a pretty substantial one: she did it at risk to herself and for someone she would normally (and did) be disgusted at. She also calms the ladies during Blackwater, and I can't see any reason she'd do that then for their own good.

And even if she values good deeds because other people value good deeds in songs, I don't see how that doesn't make her a good person. That's generally how people are taught to empathize. She dismisses cruel and evil knights, despite being knights, because she values that they are good and kind. I think that describes her very well in GoT, but by the time she's seen Joffrey for who she is, she values kindness quite a bit, to others and herself.

This isn't to say she isn't rife with all the other flaws you mentioned, but I think saying she's not good hearted is a blow against GRRM's characterization and writing abilities.

[(Anonymous)]

And to my mind, it's actually a point in his favor to call Sansa not truly good hearted. Most people who are born into positions of priviledge don't realize their worldview is flawed or narrow, and display exactly that sort of idealized, self-serving morality. Sansa embodies this in a stereotypical way, yes, but it's still a very realistic personality even if it's meant to subvert an archetype. All those good deeds you pointed out were extensions of Sansa's desire to conform to that archetype; if you go back for a close reading you find the "courtesy is a lady's armor" and variations on that line/theme repeated throughout those scenes as a insight to her true intentions.

Furthermore, in both those scenes her "good deeds" are only beneficial to characters of high blood/station. Subtle, yes, but it also speaks to her lack of concern for people who do not possess any of her arbitrary markers of "gallantry". Peasants do not fit into her fairytales, therefore they do not concern her. This is just the opposite of Dany.

Besides that, though... there are also characters like Brienne to provide an expertly executed foil. I wouldn't say it's an insult to GRRM when he gives us a female character whose motivations are essentially the masculine equivalent of Sansa's ideas haha.

If anything, the only poor bit about it is that he turns around and plays Jon Snow totally straight. (god damn I hate that little twerp)

[(Anonymous)]

Of course peasants don't concern her. She's been locked away in one castle and then another, under the control of various people for who knows how long. As of right now, there is nothing the common folk can do for her and nothing she can do for them. She is too preoccupied with her current predicament to worry about them, and I don't blame her for that at all.

I think that when it all comes down to it, she is a good-hearted person. Shallow and still somewhat naive, yes, but overall she is kind. Maybe you don't see it, but I do, and I believe it will be more evident if she ever attains more power for herself later on in the series.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

There's also the part where she thinks to herself that if she is ever queen, she would want to be a kind queen who treats her subjects well.

[agnes_bean]

Note: Some vague spoilers for the ASOIAF series

IDK. I love love love Tyrion and think he definitely comes out on the top half of the pack morality wise, but, esp. by ADWD, there are a bunch of characters who I read as fundamentally more good-hearted, even if they are flawed about it.

Jon, Sam, Dany when she's not in vengeance mode (though she's bad at it), Sansa, Bran, Brienne, and Davvos all jump to mind, and that's just POV characters.

Honestly, by ADWD I'd probably put semi-redeemed Jaime and semi-fallen Tyrion on about the same level, and I actually found Jaime's POV more pleasant and less dark to read during AFFC than Tyrion in ADWD. (Of course, I'm a sucker for redemption-ish arcs, so).

[(Anonymous)]

Relatively speaking, though, GRRM definitely portrays him as more heroic than not. He has bad moments, but the actual book and events surrounding it underplay them quite a bit, and not just because the people there are harsher. I feel like Tyrion is supposed to represent the best one is supposed to expect from a true 'good guy' in a world like ASoIaF.

Except Jon Snow, who for the most part has been a straight-faced portrayal of the generic fantasy hero.

OT but...

[(Anonymous)]

Fucking Jon Snow. Oh god, I hate that retard.

Re: OT but...

[(Anonymous)]

fuck off

Re: OT but...

[(Anonymous)]

U mad bro? Jon Snow isn't even a character, he's a non-entity. He exists purely to be a tragic hero. And a retard.

Worst character of all time.

Re: OT but...

[(Anonymous)]

Again, fuck off for the slur.

[i_paint_the_sky]

Yeah, I love Tyrion but I don't think he's a particularly good person. Of course, he's not particularly bad either, which as others have stated, might be why he seems more heroic than he actually is in comparison to the rest of the cast.

[(Anonymous)]

How far have you read in the books? If you haven't read them I won't spoil you, but Tyrions actions are honestly miles above what most people would consider justified for the motivations he's given by almost everyone around him.

[i_paint_the_sky]

I haven't read ADWD yet because I refuse to spend $40 on a book and the mass market release got pushed back but I have read the other four.

[truxillogical]

Library?

I only say because at ours it's been available without waiting on the hold list for a few months now. But heck, I still haven't read it because I just don't have a huge chunk of time to devote to plowing through a tome right about now.

[i_paint_the_sky]

I'm on the waiting list for the ebook. And, honestly, it hasn't been a huge priority for me either. I do like the series but I don't love it, or at least I don't love all of it (if it was just the Lannister show, things would be different). Plus what I've heard about ADWD hasn't inspired me that much either, though I hear it ends on a high note.

[(Anonymous)]

SPOILERS FOR ASOS
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I think GRRM still means for him to be a hero-type, but what he did to Shae has no excuses, especially on reflection to what he did to Tysha (and having just found out that was a set-up, too!).
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[(Anonymous)]

?? What Tyrion did to Tysha? Tyrion didn't do anything to Tysha.

[(Anonymous)]

Tyrion raped Tysha. He refused to think of the incident that way before ADWD, but from the way he described it in his thought and to others, it's clear that he realised it was rape, even though he thought she was a whore. He fucked her after a hundred soldiers did the same and while she was blleding and nearly comatose.