fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2233 ]

[ SECRET POST #2233 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2233 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Not to object, but I personally think that Remus is simply a born whiner. His... peculiarity pretty much made his life miserable, and any romantic relationship would've only made it worse. That being said, I think that he loved Tonks genuinely and that for him it was worth it, regardless of all the anguish.

Remus is just kind of a negative, down-at-the-mouth sort of a person, I think. Maybe not a whiner but definitely a pessimist, the kind of person who almost makes an art out of being quietly miserable. Perhaps justifiably, but it's definitely something I perceive as an element of his character.

In addition, I think the presentation of the relationship in canon suffers from the fact that it's not the main focus of the story.

I think the presentation of the relationship in canon suffers from the fact that JKR sucks monkey balls at writing relationships.

And since when did "pragmatic" become "pessimistic"? The Ministry was tightening its restrictions on werewolves and he couldn't get a job anywhere, and only got the DADA job because he knew Dumbledore and there was a spot open. His life is absolutely miserable, so fuck you for calling him a Debbie Downer just because he doesn't have rainbows and unicorns shooting out his ass.

I think the presentation of the relationship in canon suffers from the fact that JKR sucks monkey balls at writing relationships.

Not disagreeing, not disagreeing.

And since when did "pragmatic" become "pessimistic"? The Ministry was tightening its restrictions on werewolves and he couldn't get a job anywhere, and only got the DADA job because he knew Dumbledore and there was a spot open. His life is absolutely miserable, so fuck you for calling him a Debbie Downer just because he doesn't have rainbows and unicorns shooting out his ass.

Like I said, "perhaps justifiably".

And I should clarify - I'm definitely not trying to judge him for being that way, there's nothing morally wrong with it and he's still a good person, I'm not calling him out. It's just the way that I perceive his general cast of character. And I think it kind of extends not just to his employment prospects but to most of the things in his life - his romantic relationships in particular.

I'm not saying that he needs to be super pepped-up and nothing but smiles, or anything like that. But the character's general outlook as presented in the series, just seems pretty consistently negative to me, not just as a reaction to circumstances but as a cast of mind. And, again, he has had a pretty terrible life, which surely shaped that.

I agree.

See, I'm not seeing where this "pessimism" actually comes up - except when he's trying to avoid dating Tonks. He's very attuned to the reality of the situation, and the reality just isn't good. That doesn't make him a pessimist, it makes him a realist, a pragmatist. The fact that his only true pessimism comes up when people are trying to get him to hook up with Tonks says more about how he feels about the idea of the relationship itself (it's a bad one) than his overarching character.

That said, grumpy or not, JKR has full control over her characters and she could have done a lot more to imply his happiness with the relationship than she did - which was not at all. She gave us absolutely nothing to show that his doubts and concerns were unfounded. Tonks was absolutely miserable without him and everybody wanted him to be with her, completely ignoring his objections - this was a great many people who would be happy if he did this, and so he did, without ever conceding that it might make him happy, too. His only joy is that everyone else got what they wanted, and when that wore off, there was nothing. The relationship wasn't improving anything about his life. He's not happy, and we're never shown that he might be.

Erm. JKR has stated that his personality is pretty much the exact opposite of a "born whiner" - his flaws are that he gives in too easily and lets people do things even though he knows he shouldn't because he wants people to like him. He's a doormat, and everybody pressured him into hooking up with Tonks despite his initial objections. He did it to make everyone else happy. Again: in all the scenes we have of him after that, he is miserable, and his final resting place has no Tonks. If he truly loved her, wouldn't she have been there? I find it ridiculous that JKR actually believed it was supposed to be a happy relationship and yet gives us nothing to imply that.

But again, if it had been written differently, (that is, by somebody who actually knows how to write a damn relationship) I probably wouldn't actively object to it. I'm perfectly capable of and willing to accept when something isn't to my taste without hating on it.

JKR has stated that his personality is pretty much the exact opposite of a "born whiner" - his flaws are that he gives in too easily and lets people do things even though he knows he shouldn't because he wants people to like him.

I don't think those two things necessarily conflict. At least, the idea that Remus is a negative person and a pessimist doesn't conflict with the latter idea, because the worry about whether people like him is part of that general pessimism. And I think there's also an element of... "Well, things are probably going to go wrong anyway, and I probably can't do anything about it, so I might as well go along with it" to his character, which is again a part of the pessimism.

And I don't think that your reading of the nature of their relationship is necessarily right - at least, that's not the way it's presented in the text. It's not as though Remus was totally not into it and fucking hated the idea - his objections were much more just the kind of pessimistic, anxious, introspective, negative thing that's, again, a part of his character. "I can't let myself be happy, doing this thing wouldn't make anyone happy, and anyway it'll all go wrong anyway and everyone will be terrible emotionally devastated and it'll all be my fault." I mean, at least as presented in the book, getting together with Tonks was always something that Remus wanted in himself but had other reasons (connected to his personality) for denying. If you want to say that his real reasons were something other and that was all just a cover, I guess there's nothing I can say against that.

I agree that the relationship suffered a lot from JKR's writing. I think it's still not as bad as you're making it out to be.

I mean, at least as presented in the book, getting together with Tonks was always something that Remus wanted in himself but had other reasons (connected to his personality) for denying.

Quote? Page number? I don't recall this ever being present. You're free to assume that this is true (as I'm sure most fans of canon!Remus/Tonks do), but seeing as it's only an interpretation and not something directly implied in text, your argument is no more valid than mine.

And I don't know why you're defending this on a thread titled POPULAR SHIPS YOU HATE. Thanks for reminding me that I can't hate a canon het ship, even on a thread about hating ships!

Hahaha yes I am the head detective of the het police and I am here to run you in for failing to properly ship canon het

Seriously, though, of course you can hate whatever ship you want. But as I saw it, this was a conversation about an interpretation of a character and the nature of the relationship more than anything else. I didn't mean to say that you can't not ship anyone, and I'm sorry if it came off that way; I was just posting some thoughts about Remus and his relationship with Tonks because it seemed interesting. To put it another way, maybe, there's nothing wrong with hating any ship at all; but to me this conversation was more about the particular nature of the ship in question rather than whether or not one ought to hate it.

It comes off more that because I dislike it, I obviously haven't thought about all the possibilities regarding it. I'm sick of not being able to say "I don't like Remus/Tonks" without being told that I haven't thought about it or that I'm just an embittered slash fan. I have thought about it, and talked about it, and discussed it at length. The relationship as written is fucked up and sketchy, and if their genders were switched, nobody would be okay with it. Or at least, not nearly as many people as those who defend it now. I don't get nearly as much flak for disliking other canon ships as I do for this one, despite all the assumptions and particular interpretations canon!Remus/Tonks shippers make in order to make the relationship not skeevy as fuck.

I don't agree but I suppose that's life.

Yes, sorry, poor wording. The anon above formulated it much better. "definitely a pessimist, the kind of person who almost makes an art out of being quietly miserable".
By a "born whiner" I meant more of an "inner whiner", not as in he's hanging about telling everyone about his hapless fate.

I also do agree that JKR writes weird relationships. Literally every romance in HP is so creepy it's unbelievable. But I felt like Tonks/Remus was one of the better ones, and I don't think that he did it "to make everyone else happy". It was more of a choice between two evils, but he yielded to one of them because of her.

Still, I certainly get your sentiment. But this way there are no ships left in HP at all.

Gotta say I have no idea where you're getting the "every romance is so creepy" thing. They're all a little off-beat, which is only to be expected for characters who are 16-17 years old and/or don't have normal live, but the only creepy romances I can remember are Dumbledore/Grindelwald and Snape/Lily.

In the movies, on the other hand...yeah...very bizarre and creepy.

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[ SECRET POST #2233 ]

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