[ SECRET POST #2233 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2233 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #319.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

(brilliant chubby heroine, steampunk, and well-written canon gay and lesbian characters...why isn't the fandom exploding?)

Because it takes 2-3 books to introduce any other female character even remotely brilliant, and then it's a lesbian who dresses like a man? And another 4-5 books before Alexia discovers anything clever about her supposed best friend, and all other women are frivolous bitches? Because the prominent gay characters play strongly to stereotypes: the simpering dandy and the butch lesbian? Because the prose gets a bit OTT if you read too much in one sitting? Just some ideas.

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

...yeah, I was just thinking that. The "well-written canon gay and lesbian characters" amount to gay men who pretty much hit every flamboyant gay male stereotype in the books (one is even great at styling hair, ffs) and a woman who dresses like a man and makes frequent passes at Alexia, whose brilliancy somehow fails to pick up on the fact that 1) a woman is making a really unsubtle pass at her and 2) the manner in which it's made is unacceptable, it doesn't if it's a lesbian doing it. #2 bugs me most of all, because when the same stuff happens involving a man making a pass, Alexia shuts down that BS right away. When the lesbian character does it, she's mostly just... naively perplexed and uncomfortable? WTF.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the books. They're delicious brain candy. I like Lord Akeldama's character despite the fact that it's not terribly original-- although I find him most interesting when we get glimpses beneath the superficial mask-- but ALL of the gay/lesbian characters are stereotypes. I suspect that fandom's just so happy seeing gay/lesbian characters that they're willing to give lack of originality a pass... for now.

ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed on the books being delicious brain candy. I even like Lefoux and Akeldama and Biffy and feel for them when bad things happen... they just aren't really all that progressive. It sounds like there's a lot more bisexuals running around as secondary and tertiary characters, for what it's worth, I guess.

When the lesbian character does it, she's mostly just... naively perplexed and uncomfortable? WTF
And slightly receptive to it, like she's somewhat bi-curious, but hasn't let herself think about it, even know about her father's sexcapades. At worst (imo) it comes off like the author's trying to clear Alexia's not bigoted or even necessarily close-minded but omg she's totally straight don't forget!! Kinda like her weight, that sparked this thread: lots of little words dropped in to make you think she might be anything other than an Amazonian centerfold, but none of it goes anywhere on closer inspection.

...there's a lot of nuance that these books could use, I think. But I don't think the books even take themselves seriously since the tone seems to be predominantly Victorian-novel/Regency-comedy-of-manners satire, so that's not so bad either.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

The cynical side of me thinks that this is a great way to score points for being progressive and enlightened regarding gay/lesbian characters and plus-sized heroines, but without taking any real risks. It doesn't mean the series is terrible or anything, but I'm skeptical when people paint it as though it's a victory for groups who ordinarily get little to no representation in popular fiction.

That might've passed as edgy fifteen or twenty years ago, but these days I think we should expect more than a few well-worn stereotypes.

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

Can I ask your opinion on Professor Lyall? I totally agree that most of the gay and lesbian characters are stereotypes, but he was a prominent and multi-faceted character who didn't seem to fit any kind of stereotype (in many facets, including as a werewolf).

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

Prof. Lyall is one of the promising characters, but it doesn't seem like Carriger's done much with him yet? I don't know if this criticism makes sense, but it seems me that he's very competent, reliable and a key figure in some of the plots, but... not in a dynamic way. I haven't read the last book of the series, but the most I know about him is that he's a solid Beta, someone who doesn't look impressive but is more than he seems. Carriger emphasizes that a lot, but I'd be happier if he took a more active role rather than being the back-up man or clean-up-peoples'-messes guy.

But he's a far better character than Madame LeFoux, whose personality feels very slapdash and thrown together.

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

This is the above poster here nerding out about these books.

I definitely understand the criticism...I have the same criticism as well. The character who impressed me so much was Professor Lyall, who was a funny, layered, and original character who also happened to be a bisexual werewolf. Not to be naive, but this was really important to me. I have read hundreds of fantasy, sci-fi, and steampunk books, and LGBTQ characters are still so rare in the genre, especially well-written ones (or maybe I'm not reading the right books...recs are welcome). His relationship with Biffy was intense and painful and I think Carriger did a good job letting them get to know each other before entering a relationship. I understand the criticism for the stereotypes of the vampires, because it was overplayed, and I wish Carriger gave Madame Lefoux something to do in the books other than eff everything up constantly (I feel like the only one who likes her sometimes!).

As for the comments about Alexia's figure, I suppose you caught me. I haven't read the books since last summer (all in one greedy week) and I may be a little overzealous in seeing Alexia as a fat heroine (this fat girl wants more fat heroines!). I can't help but project a little.

I'm pretty sure this is just me freaking out over these books...if you can't tell, they are high in my list of favorites. I'm just glad to see criticism and conversation for them...even if they are flawed, I'm glad people are talking about them.

Re: AGREE

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

I'm a fat girl who'd like to see more fat heroines, too. That's why all the coyness about heroines who (OH NOES!!!!) are cursed with large breasts and hourglass figures makes me cranky. That's a fine body shape to have, but I don't mistake it for an author having an enlightened view about plus-sized heroines.

That said, I really liked the series, too. Just discovered it and devoured several of them in less than a week.