[ SECRET POST #2302 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2302 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 065 secrets from Secret Submission Post #329.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

This is why the "no criticism" trend is so harmful. Sometimes people need to be told that they suck at something. Not mocking or ripping or bullying, but just pointing out the fact. I suck at drawing. It's not something to be ashamed of - I have other skills that I excel at, and those are the ones I share with the world.

[anonymouslyyours]

IDK. I tend to think the "no criticism" thing is a way for artists/authors to say hey, I know I suck but this is my karaoke night. I'm not trying out for Idol so take it easy, I'm just having fun.

But secretly I know when you're doing it for someone, even in good fun, there's a chance you're going to disappoint some small part of them. *shudders*

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, Christ, this! I know that some people don't want any criticism for their fanwork, since it's for fun, but criticism is not a dirty word. A few years back I went to an art class that was a complete waste of time and money. I didn't learn anything there, because the teacher took the approach of only positive feedback. I had this one drawing of a live model that was pretty awful; even I could see that the perspective was completely out of whack, the anatomy could use serious work and the shading was incomplete.

Did the teacher mention any of these? No, she complimented the colors and said something about the other stuff only after I pointed them out. What was I supposed to learn there?

[(Anonymous)]

To pay attention to things you do well?
Since you already excelled in pointing out your own faults?

[(Anonymous)]

Probably, but a teacher that doesn't point out the things that need improvement or much less provide advice on how to improve them, isn't at all useful as an actual teacher.

[truxillogical]

Not what an art teacher is supposed to do, especially if it's a class for adults. Adults should be able to take criticism.

They don't have to be Simon what's-his-face, but really, the only way to improve as an artist is to see your faults and learn how to fix them. And there's being a little aware that something's not right, and being called out on it, and the latter is the bit that really makes your brain go: "Whup, not fooling anybody, better learn to do it right."

I would be livid if I paid good money to a live model art class and the teacher spent the whole time being Bob Ross at me. It's called a class, you go there to learn, not to get gentle pats on the bum. That's what deviantart is for.

There are classes adults take that do a more Bob Ross approach. Those are pretty upfront about it too: "We're going to learn to paint This Scene." And everyone paints more or less the same thing, and maybe learns a bit about how oil paints work, which is tricky. But that's not the same as a class with a live model, because the whole point of drawing a live model is to improve, to learn how to See, and to learn how to apply that to what you draw. It's really tricky and you can learn that stuff on your own over time, but that's why people pay art teachers--to help them learn faster.

My art classes, we'd have open critique, and it could be brutal. It made us a lot better, though.

[(Anonymous)]

And there's being a little aware that something's not right, and being called out on it, and the latter is the bit that really makes your brain go: "Whup, not fooling anybody, better learn to do it right."

I'd argue that having the specific thing that is wrong pointed out is what helps, or getting instructions on how to do it right - either can be difficlt without support, but you don't need someone to tell you "you're bad at this" to tell you "hey, that arm is going at an odd angle".

[truxillogical]

Right, but above-above anon was talking about an art teacher that literally only gave them praise and didn't point out anything that was wrong. That is bad teaching right there, especially on an adult level. Constructive criticism is golden, heady stuff. I take my portfolio to cons and ask pros for critiques, and I'll be honest--I walk away way more disappointed and ashamed of myself after a critique that's nothing but, "Oh, that's nice!" as opposed to one that's "fix this, fix that, that's wrong, and stop pretending you know how to draw a car and actually learn how to draw one." The former is what you say to a kid handing you a picture they drew themselves for the fridge; the latter is how you speak to an adult (or a teen, even) who came to you for help improving themselves.

I've never seen an art teacher tell a student: "You're bad at this." That implies that being able to draw is a you-have-it-or-you-don't thing, and boy howdy does that concept piss off so many artists, teachers, and students. "I just can't draw." No, you just haven't learned. I just couldn't draw when I was younger--it's a craft and a skill, and it takes patience and practice and practice and practice and usually a whole lotta outside critique to be able to do well. Not everyone wants to put that kind of time and effort into learning it (which is fine, different people, different priorities), but there's no such thing as someone who can't make art. So no art teacher worth anything would tell a student: "You suck." But no art teacher worth anything would be so loathe to hurt anyone's feelings that they wouldn't give that student an honest critique either.

[(Anonymous)]

That is what I find kind of hard when it comes to critizing stuff on the internet: I never have a clue how old the person is.

They might be an adult and draw badly or they might be 13 and draw badly. So it is kind of hard to figure out how to critize someone on the Internet because you don't see them in person and you have no clues in what way they react best to critizm.

[truxillogical]

I don't do a lot of crit online because people give you grief for it, but I do usually make a judgement based on the kinda of fandom and the "maturity" level of the art/fic in question. If you're going to play in grown-up areas, then you can take criticism like a grown-up, even if you're only 13.

There's never really an excuse to tell someone they're crap and leave it at that.

But these days, yeah, it's just not worth the potential wankstorm that can be unleashed, so I just tend to not leave comments unless I love something.

[(Anonymous)]

I see your point, but telling someone "you suck and you aren't improving/will never improve/are incapable of being good at this" IS mocking and bullying. There's a reason it's called CONCRETE criticism. I believe crit is very important for any artistic realm, but telling someone "lol you fail" is not helpful. If you're going to tell someone their art is bad, you need to give them specific advice on how to get better.

[(Anonymous)]

CONSTRUCTIVE crit, not concrete.

[(Anonymous)]

Ah, concrete criticism. Things like, "too many bubbles," "not level," "the composition of where that cat walked through before it dried is poor."

[(Anonymous)]

More like things like "not enough slump," "too much aggregate," and "uneven lifts."

/learn to concrete

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, but "you suck" isn't criticism. It's just being an asshole.

[spacebabie]

Uh no. I had someone e-mail me once and told me that my art was horrible and that I should stop. That was not concrit that was a flame.

Constructive Criticism is telling people that their perspective is wonky or that one arm is too short or they need to improve on their backgrounds and shading.

The latter not the former helped me improve and now today I can say that I'm a victim of an art thief.