fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2325 ]

[ SECRET POST #2325 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2325 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 037 secrets from Secret Submission Post #332.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I said I can understand it. I did not say I agree with it. I did not say I condone it. I just said I can understand it.

the fact that you can conceive of it being okay is hurtful, no matter how many quotes you try to throw at it

When did nyxelestia say it was okay? She just said she understood why someone would have said the things they did because of their experience. She did not say she agreed with that was said and she didn't say what they said was okay.

Understanding =/= okaying, understanding =/= agreeing. They're different words for a reason.

How, exactly, are we supposed to stop something from happening if we don't understand why it is happening in the first place? It would be the social equivalent of the miasma theory.

that's shifting the goalpost. your initial post in no way says you understand the lady's feelings in connection to your desire to change her feelings. you simply said you understood where she'd be coming from if she became transphobic because of the internet's response to the incident. that's why someone brought up tone argument - that's the 'I'm not going to be sorry for stepping on your foot since you weren't nice about how you said ouch' argument. if the lady became transphobic because of response to her transphobic comments, that would be her employing tone argument and your initial comment endorses that.

and really, throwing up the quote that you did really looks like you're implying someone's stupid (or that their 'mind is uneducated') for not agreeing with your endorsement of justified transphobia

I did not at any point endorse or justify transphobia. However, the fact that you automatically equate understanding the source of something with condoning it does make you pretty stupid. (I take it you endorse racism because that is a common origin of genocide? You stupid fucking racist!)

okay so now I know you were just trolling about something that can and does kill people

that's nice

yeah please never open that community

Yes, I am such a troll for wanting more allies instead of more enemies.

(Same anon as above.)

It's possible to understand why someone does something questionable without agreeing with the action. If someone has absolutely no money, no home and can't find a job, stole food from a supermarket, I can understand /why/ the person resorted to stealing. It isn't something I think it's right to do and I don't think anyone should steal, but I can understand their desperation.

Understanding is not agreeing or okaying. Understanding is not approval. Understanding is understanding. See?

Look up "fundamental attribution of error," it will help.

look up false equivalencies?

comparing a starving person stealing food to a person being transphobic is... seriously what were you even trying to accomplish there? would you say you totally understand why some nazis tortured and murdered jews? or why some people were okay with lynchings? those are more level equivallencies. 'oh I see why someone would feel that way' is not okay if the thing you're saying you can grasp and conceive of is bigotry

"would you say you totally understand why some nazis tortured and murdered jews"

Yes. I understand that some of them truly believed Jews were not considered people, or that killing Jews served some "greater good." I do not agree with them at all, and I will not say what they thought were okay.

"I see how you think or feel this way" allows the other person to know you've thought about their point of view. Then you start discussing why they arrived at their point of view and why your point of view makes sense. Saying "you're wrong!" from the get go rarely works in making people listen to your point of view.

You can say "I understand what you're feeling" /and/ "it is not morally okay to feel this way" at the same time. They are not opposites. They are two different things.

would you say you totally understand why some nazis tortured and murdered jews? or why some people were okay with lynchings?

I do, actually. It's high school history, right there.

I mean, there's a reason why so many of us invest so much energy in stopping anti-semitism and racism today, y'know? Why are we all sitting around here poking every piece of media with -ism and -phobia sticks? Oh, right, all the propaganda that facilitated the horrific scapegoating that ended with all the murder. And why was this scapegoating needed? Oh, hey, look, systemic economic disparities! (I could continue on, but this can take a while and tracks through thousands of years of history).

We understand these are the roots of the Holocaust and lynchings, and that is why we know to address these issues and stop them before they can end in such tragedy again.

(Also, maybe you should try looking up 'analogy' before you tell people to look up false equivalencies.)

Edited 2013-05-16 08:43 (UTC)

If horrifying thoughts and behaviors were so utterly alien and difficult to get our minds around then we wouldn't suffer so much from them since they'd be limited to a tiny subset of the human population.

You misread a quote. Instead of flailing around and insisting that the mistake is with the post (which everyone else understood), maybe just go "Oh, I guess," next time. You will look like 95% less of a jackass.

It is a huge part of the curriculum at German schools to make people understand how and why nazism could happen. So yes, all German kids now understand why nazis did what they did. Does that mean all German kids now condone it?

Fuck you.

are you trans*?

If I am trans, I have internalized transphobia or am simply a bad transwoman for daring to put myself in someone else's shoes, and therefore have no right to speak on this issue.

If I'm not, then I am privileged and arrogant for daring to listen to everyone's experiences on this issue instead of only trans people's side of the story and for extrapolating based on what I heard and my own parallel experiences, and therefore have no right to speak.

Either way, you will most likely insist I have no right to speak on this issue, and either way, I will continue to speak on this issue.

So you know what? You decide.

the reason I am asking is because you are speaking OVER trans* people

if you are trans* yourself you have that right as it is your place to speak as well

if you are not trans* you are doing the same thing you bemoan those horrid SJWs for doing - talking over the people actually experiencing the thing you are intellectually waxing over

so yeah it really does make a difference

She's not debating trans issues. She's debating pragmatism and empathy and their greater effectiveness than wrath in furthering progressive causes. She's discussing effective tactics of spreading progressive ideas. It's very clear that on that she's eminently more qualified to speak than most of the anons in the thread. It would benefit you to turn off the predictive text in your head and listen to what she's actually saying.

Except I'm not talking about something that is just a trans issue. The example we've been using is a trans-specific situation, but the issue over all affects a plethora of intersecting minority demographics. The same problem I'm talking about - the harassment, the bullying, the relentless back and forth pejoratives - happens in relation to sex, gender, race, religion, homosexuality, etc.

There are extremely few, if any, people who are a part of ALL the groups that experience oppression, even here in fandom. And yet everyone is speaking on pretty much the same subject.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2325 ]

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