fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2327 ]

[ SECRET POST #2327 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2327 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

#14 is a moving .gif.

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02.

[Sofia the First]

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03.

[Once Upon a Time]

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[Tara Strong, John de Lancie]

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[Iron Man 3]

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06.

[Cristiano Ronaldo]

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[BriTANick]

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08.

[Teen Wolf]

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[Community]

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[Batman movies (Nolan)]

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[Nine Inch Nails]

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[Harry Potter]

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[Romeo and Juliet, 1968]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

15. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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16. [SPOILERS for Star Trek: Into Darkness]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

17. [repeat]

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18. [WARNING for suicide]

[Supernatural]

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19. [WARNING for non-con]

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20. [WARNING for dubcon]

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21. [WARNING for eating disorders]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #332.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"Latino" is a complex identity. Montalban's parents were from Spain, though. You can be both white and Latin.

I mean there are people of Spanish descent who try to get POC scholarships and grants but that doesn't make them any less European.

Speaking Spanish doesn't make you a POC. I could be born and raised in Africa, be a citizen of an African nation and speak an African language, but that wouldn't make me black.

I'm not erasing his identity. Perhaps Montalban and I disagree on what is considered "white," but we ultimately don't get to decide our own identity. Our community and culture does.

Edited 2013-05-18 01:54 (UTC)

Yes, you are if you're calling him white.

Mexicans, as a culture, are very, very protective of their roots, and for us (Because I'm a light-skinned Mexican, btw) being called 'white' in the context of race, it's pretty much as calling us 'not Mexicans', and erasing our identity. And Montalban said in NUMEROUS interviews that he was not a white actor, that he didn't consider himself a white actor, and he was very rarely cast in white roles because Hollywood considered him 'non threatening brown'. It wasn't until much later in his career that he got main characters due to this. And if you talk about community deciding, well, we Mexicans don't consider ourselves white, and no, Ricardo Montalban wasn't white.

So again, if you consider that Ricardo Montalban being Mexican makes it ok for Benedict Cumberbatch to play a character of Indian decent, perfect. No problem. But don't call Montalban white because that only erases all his hard work.

I'm not going to argue with you. But I don't think calling a man of Spanish descent a man of Spanish descent is erasing his identity. I also wouldn't say Pope Francis isn't a Brazilian, but his parents are from Italy.

I was under the impression that racism existed in Mexico, and that light-skinned Mexicans are at the top of a hierarchy. I'm not accusing you of anything of the sort, but you have to admit that part of the reason white Hollywood considered Montalban a "nonthreatening brown" had to do with the fact that he was often not particularly brown in the first place.

There is very much a class problem in Mexico, but most people are so ignorant of the fact that I've heard them openly dismiss the concept that those at the top of the hierarchy actually exist (or that they're also quite wealthy), so it just adds to the confusion around the topic.

As you said before, the concept of a Latino identity is a complex issue, but I think the real issue is the fact that we're apparently still in the sixties in terms of casting, and not Montalban himself, although a comment made in a similar discussion mentions that he's grown paler as time passed:

"...In fact, part of the reason Ricardo's family immigrated to Mexico was due to how poorly "dark" Spaniards were treated in their home country due to lasting racism against anyone remotely North African looking. Ricardo Montalbán had noticeably darker skin that wasn't just because he tanned a lot. It began to fade into a paler complexion as he aged though, hence the big difference between.

this: http://sharetv.org/images/win_lose_or_draw/cast/large/ricardo_montalban.jpg

and this: http://images.zap2it.com/images/celeb-53949/ricardo-montalban-1.jpg"

(I'm lazy, so I just pasted everything.)

Apparently he was also made-up to be paler during Wrath of Khan to show how the planet affected him, or something similar, but I don't know enough to fact-check that.

EDIT: I tried to wiki some of this to find better sources, but I gave up after seeing that Hollywood back then regularly cast him in the role of Asian characters and wanted to change his name to Ricky Martin. The silliness is too much.

Edited 2013-05-18 03:08 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to explain a bit as best as I can because it's one of those things deeply ingrained in our culture that it's very hard to get and I'm sensing that you don't mean any disrespect.

Calling a Mexican 'of spanish descent' is a bit worse than calling us 'white'. Even if our parents are spanish and we're first generation born here. Mexicans are deeply patriotic, and there's nothing, nothing more important than being Mexican. If you were born in Mexico, or spend more than 5 years living here, you're a Mexican. And while there's racism in México, it's not the same as in the USA as it's ingrained in clasissm. It doesn't matter if you're dark-brown skinned, if you're rich. Then, you're on the top of the hierarchy. If you're poor, it doesn't matter if you're pasty white. To put it plainly, Ricardo Montalban was darker than I am, and he was way higher than I in the hierarchy in México. And, none of that matters when we're talking about México as a country. We're Mexicans in the end, and when it's our identity in game, all of us, light skinned or dark skinned are still Mexican.

Which is my point. I'm not saying that it was right for him to be casted as Khan, or to take the fact that he was Khan as the reason why it's wrong to have Cumberbatch as Khan now. I'm just saying that please, respect his own self-identity and his culture and don't call him a white actor.

Okay. I'm going to flat out admit (to you and Valour) that I was familiar with black-and-white movie Montalban and "Rich Corinthian Leather" Montalban; I hadn't seen many pictures of him between.

Thank you both very much for explaining all this to me! I just want to be clear--I didn't mean to claim that he wasn't 100% Mexican.

I will say this, though: I'd argue that racism and class are also very deeply connected in the US. There's a reason someone like Obama--whose mom was an anthropologist--can go so far in politics, while the kids from my minority majority high school are far less likely to get similar chances no matter how smart and ambitious they are.

I know you didn't mean any offense, which is why I took my time to explain at the best of my abilities.

And well, now we understand each other :)

Yes, class and racism are connected in the US too but let me put it this way. Our most beloved president was very dark skinned, and when a comedian made a joke of his name (Not a race joke, not an offensive joke. Just a silly joke), he got blacklisted for almost 20 years, unable to get a job. Do you see that happening to someone making fun of Obama with a racist joke? When I mean that at a certain point we don't care for the skin color, I mean we don't care. Which makes very hard to explain american racism to some mexicans, unfortunately.

Mexicans are POC because they are mixed. They have Native American blood. If your family came from Spain, and only has Spanish blood, then no-you are not POC. You're a white Mexican.

I didn't know random people on the internet got to tell other people how they should identify and why.

Again. I'm Mexican. I've lived all my life in Mexico City. I have no idea if I have Aztec blood or not, but that doesn't mean I am not Mexican or that I consider myself white.

Ricardo Montalban was Mexican. He didn't consider himself white.

Isn't that enough for you?

Why is Mexican incompatible with white? Aren't those two concepts that describe two different things? Isn't Mexican a national / political / cultural identifier, whereas white is... well, kind of a nonsense term, but if it's anything, isn't it describing race? Why is it impossible for a white Mexican to exist? That's what I don't understand here - your position seems to be that if someone is white they can't be Mexican, and I don't understand that at all.

(nayrt for what that's worth, and haven't posted anywhere else in this subthread)

As someone else mentioned in this subthread, the thing is that we're talking about 'white' in the sense that USA uses it. And it that sense, with that kind of privileges and advantages, no, we're not white.

It's not about being 'exotic', it's not about 'being special'. It's a national identity. Trying to explain this when things are seen in terms of how USA sees race and racism is very, very hard.

Yes, someone can be white skinned and be Mexican, of course you can. My best friend is mexican and she's white skinned and red haired, and one of my cousins is blonde and green eyed. And they're still mexicans. But they don't have any social advantage over me, light skinned but brown haired, or my best friend of my same age who is brown skinned and with black hair. We're exactly on the same social level, and if we four go to ask for the exact same job, we have the exact same opportunities to get said job. Skin color is not as important in Mexico as its in USA. BUT cultural identity is. And my only beef with all this is that, by calling Ricardo Montalban white by USA standars, people erase his cultural identity. In Mexico no one would call him white because no one would care.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that, if I am not mixed, I cannot be a POC? What if all my ancestors come from ("black") Africa? What if all my ancestors are from the same ethnic ("brown") group from India? Why if all my ancestors are from ("yellow") China?

The way you phrased it seems to imply that the standard is white, and that not being purely white means being mixed.

No problem! I only learned more about him recently, so I figured I'd just pass the info on since I spent so much time reading about it. I also agree with your latter point, but I'm from the US myself, so I've seen both sides (sad to say).

Actually, Francisco is not Brazilian, he's from Argentina.

Also, people of mixed descent (the so-called POCs) make most of the population in Mexico. Actually I can't say what exactly I am, other than mixed, as my ancestors come from at least eight different ethnic groups (completely different pre-Columbian civilizations), all of which still exist on modern Mexico, AND I am of Spanish descent as well. I can assure you I'm not the exception.

Also, as far as I know, not all Spanish people is white. Or so I was told on school, but teachers might have been deceiving me *shrug*

Where I live (South Mexico), most white-white locals you meet are usually at the bottom of the hierarchy. And they are usually the odd ducks. Same with black-black people. It is more usual to meet locals of Asian or Arab or Indian descent. White and black people are usually confused with tourists, and basically ignored.

Spain...is white. The whole reason why Mexicans are POC is because the Spanish conquistadors raped/intermarried with the NA tribes there.

Somehow I'm getting the feeling that people just want to be labeled something exotic, because they think being white is too "boring". (Not saying you, but the poster who said their blood is purely from Spain but live in Mexico)

I wouldn't call Spain white, for two reasons, both of whom I was taught in primary school: the Spanish Romani, and the Arabic influence on Spain demographics and culture. Certain regions are more white than others, undoubtedly, but then, Spain is one of the most known examples (in my profession) of a nation comprised of clearly distinct regions who pride in their cultural differences and governmental independence while still remaining part of a country.

And a good part of what we are taught in school while growing up is that our independentist movements were partly lead by people born in Spain but who decided to cut ties. For their own selfish reasons, of course, but the fact remains that calling oneself of purely Spanish blood instead of Mexican is more likely than not to get you rolling eyes, a smack in the head and a suggestion to stop being an idiot, if not worse.

The fact remains that Mexico is mostly mestizo (of mixed blood), so in our culture being white-white or black-black is to be exotic. Also, please, please don't call Mexico's (and Central and South America)'s pre-Columbian cultures 'tribes'. I understand the confusion, but they are not the same.

And I understand your point, but as another commenter pointed out elsewhere, the words and concepts used on racism and exoticism and POC discussion in mostly-USA environments (which this part of the internet is) is usually not directly applicable to other cultures.

Seems like a lot of people are jumping through a lot of hoops to make Cumberbatch's casting Not A Big Deal, when the truth is that Star Trek especially should be leaping at ANY chance to make main characters not white. It's 300 years in the future, ffs.

Anything to defend the pasty British guy, I guess.

Star Trek has been pretty good (at least in its televised incarnations) at having POC main characters, though. I mean, not always perfectly so, but it's not like they've been lily white either - it's something I'd argue they've consistently been very good about. I mean, they've had POC captains, first officers, doctors, security officers, helmsmen, communications officers, engineers. The best Star Trek captain was black (this is a true fact that you cannot argue with btw). It's an element that's always been part of the Star Trek future in a fairly unequivocal way - that racial distinctions are outmoded and that we're going to move beyond them. So they have, historically, leapt at that chance. They've done it.

Pretty much this. I'd have loved to have seen an actual Indian actor in the role (well, not 'seen', as i have not seen the movie but, you know what i mean....) instead of very white, very British, very-not-Indian Cumberbatch.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2327 ]

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