[ SECRET POST #2358 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2358 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #336.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[intrigueing]

No. "Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey" is not an acceptable explanation. Not any more, after Moffat has used it to explain everything that made no sense for the past four years. It's not a concept that can prop up the logic of an entire storyline.

And no, the Doctor doesn't lie all the time for no reason. Eleven lies, and Seven lies. Moffat made that up out of nowhere and tried to retcon it onto the entire history of the show. And if I hear that goddamn fucking "the Doctor lies" catchphrase parroted out of the blue with no logical character motivation behind it just to excuse some stupid "cool" scene one more fucking time, I'm going to punch a hole in the screen. Didn't we have a whole secret about this a month or so ago?

So yeah, we have been watching different shows. The only show you've apparently been watching (or at least caring about) is Moffat-Who, and there were 46 years worth of Doctor Who before him which I count as being just as canon as Moffat-Who.

+1000000000000000000000000

[(Anonymous)]

[(Anonymous)]

Unfortunately, the show isn't being written for you. Moffat has the reigns, thus wibbly wobbly timey wimey, and the doctor lies are viable explanations. If you don't like it, well, you don't have to watch.

Simple as that. I don't think Moffat is crying himself to sleep over anyone's negative opinion over the show.

[(Anonymous)]

I wonder if he'll cry himself to sleep halfway through series 8 when he's no longer the showrunner.

The show is not doing well. Part of it is Matt Smith and part of it is Moffat. It's easier to cast a new Doctor under the old showrunner and then bring a new one than it is to replace both the star and the showrunner. And that is exactly what the BBC is doing.

[(Anonymous)]

But most of it is the internal problems of the BBC as they struggle with both limited finances and the changing way that people consume television. Add in that the show simply isn't the novelty it once was (which is fair enough for a show in season 7 of its reboot) and none of that is Moffat's fault. Times change, as the Doctor would probably be the first to point out.

This glee you seem to take in the problems the BBC is having seems odd for a "fan". You aren't Ian Levine by any chance are you? Because if you are, can you please fuck off as you did enough damage in the 80s with this kind of crap.

[(Anonymous)]

That doesn't excuse the fact that they're putting out an inferior product. It explains it, but having legit reasons for being bad doesn't mean people can't criticize it. People criticize products that are substandard due to troubled production all the time. That's how the people in charge realize "okay, we need to get our shit together and do better because people hate the stuff we're putting out now."

Criticizing it is what will make the people who make it either a) give them more resources, b) change the way they write the stories, or c) get it cancelled, and fear of c) is not a justification to avoid all criticism.

[(Anonymous)]

....uh.... I may be misremembering this, but didn't Ian Levine pass away? And I really really don't think the sitch in the 80s is similar to the current state of affairs at all; there were problems back then, yes, but none of the problems had to do with the quality of the writing. Which was, and is, several orders of magnitude better than the writing of the show now.

Before you say, "If you don't like, don't watch" nonny, I don't watch anymore, and am looking forward to the day when I can start watching again. If the show is at all salvageable in any way, after this, that is. Even JNT didn't do as much damage as this, and they were actively trying to kill the show at that time.

[(Anonymous)]

Timey-Wimey was good enough for Tom Baker and Peter Davison. Hell, even Jon Pertwee invoked a non-linear temporal path back in the early 70s. As for lies, well McCoy's Doctor was a big fat liar, so was Hartnell's, and Troughton's bent the truth like no tomorrow when it suited him. Nine lied to Rose's face, straight up lied, about what happened with the Daleks and he lied as he sent her off to safety. You're just pissed because canon doesn't match canon in your head, but your head canon is severely out of step with the actual show.

TL;DR You need to spend more time watching the show and less time trying to look clever.

[intrigueing]

Not really? I'm not talking about non-linear stuff by itself -- that's a big part of the show. I mean that "timey wimey" is not a sufficient complete explanation anymore because it's been overused so many times so frequently in the past three seasons. It just gets lazy, like RTD's repeated "HEY MOAR DALEKS".

And of course the Doctor lies quite a bit - I was never debating that. I meant that only Eleven and Seven (I mentioned Seven in my first comment, btw) lie for no reason. Lying was never some ridiculous "rule" for him like Moffat's pretending it was in order to get out of writing actual logical character motivation for him to lie -- One lied to Ian and Barbara all the time because he didn't trust them, Nine lied to Rose to trick her into safety, etc. But Moffat tries to pretend that the Doctor lies about everything for no reason, and that he's always done so, and pretend that it's some kind of "rule" for him so if a viewer asks "but why didn't the Doctor tell them that _____?" he can just go "the Doctor lies!" instead of "well, he decided to lie about that because [insert reasons here]".

You seem to be exaggerating my complaints a tad overmuch. I'm annoyed at easy, lazy explanations that don't require any logical character motivations. I am not annoyed simply about lying or non-linear plots.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you are annoyed that you aren't the showrunner and worse that Steven Moffat is having the sheer audacity to not consult you or do as you order him.

Every era has had its prop that it overuses a bit much. Why are you even in fandom anyway if you dislike the show so much? Go watch BGT or Game of Tits instead. Bug their fandom for a decade or so.

[intrigueing]

Yeah, every era does have a prop it overuses a bit too much. Doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize them. Like I said above, "it happened before" =/= "it's a good thing".

And I don't outright dislike the show. I love the show. I just have a lot of problems with this one particular era, and the only reason I bother criticizing it is because there's a lot of good stuff about it that could have been better without the bad things, and I firmly believe criticism is a good thing that is useful, constructive, and helps avoid repeating the same mistakes. Obviously, Moffat won't change due to my one specific opinion, but I'm a drop in the bucket just like everyone else in the fandom :)

[(Anonymous)]

But is Moffat saying ALL previous incarnations of the Doctor were big fat liars, as well? I'm genuinely asking if that's your interpretation because I didn't read it that way.


To my recollection - and I could certainly be wrong. In fact it happens a lot. Also I missed a few of the last episodes in 7b - the only people who have said 'The Doctor Lies' are people who've known 11. And 11 DOES lie all the time so that's how people who know that version of the Doctor would see him. Yes River's met other versions but the Doctor she's familiar with, the Doctor she met when she first 'became' River, is 11. So he's HER Doctor and the one she'd most likely be talking about whenever she says 'The Doctor Lies'. And --- I'm blanking now on which other characters have said that but if they've all been characters who have (mostly) known 11's version of the Doctor, it'd make sense for them to think that. And none of that means Doctors 1-10 were the same way.

[intrigueing]

That is my in-universe interpretation, actually, because that would make sense. And actually, you are probably right. While Moffat's "Rule #1 the Doctor lies" catchphrase IS poorly used and supported all on its own IMO, what irritates me the most about it is the way the fans have started spouting it constantly all over the place to explain things 1-10 have done.

So apologies, I think I criticized Moffat a tad too harshly in my previous comment, since he may not have intended fans to run with it that way. Though phrasing it as "Rule #1" doesn't exactly dissuade them...

[mfirefly10]

No apologies necessary. I've been known to interpret things wrong/forget important bits before so I wanted to know if I was missing something obvious about that rule in Moffat's Who.


I don't know why my first comment posted anon either...weird.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

"But Moffat tries to pretend that the Doctor lies about everything for no reason, and that he's always done so, and pretend that it's some kind of "rule" for him"

Moffat's fond of characters who are sociopaths (who do, indeed, lie about everything for no reason). While that's fine, that's his trademark (he made Sherlock freaking Holmes a sociopath as well), the only problem with that is he made the Doctor a sociopath.

So, either Moffat is incapable of writing multiple characters with different nuances/quirks/features (wasn't there a secret about that here), or he just wants to write a sociopath character into everything he writes, because he thinks it's cool, engaging, nifty, whatever (he's wrong BTW), or he's unconsciously writing every character he drafts as a sociopath. *shrug* Maybe Moffat IS a sociopath himelf?? That would certainly explain a lot, like why he's so in love with sociopathic characters.

Unfortunately for us, this does tend to get repetitive after awhile. Also annoying, in that neither the Doctor nor Sherlock Holmes are sociopaths, and Moffat is doing a grave injustice to both characters by turning them into sociopaths, IMO.

[fenm]

Also annoying, in that neither the Doctor nor Sherlock Holmes are sociopaths, and Moffat is doing a grave injustice to both characters by turning them into sociopaths, IMO.

Except he doesn't really make them actual sociopaths, he just makes them jerks (which I'm more or less ok with regarding Sherlock; canonically Holmes could be a bit cold... the Doctor, otoh...). Calling Sherlock a sociopath just shows Moffat's ignorance and love of buzzwords.

[intrigueing]

That sounds...uncomfortably on the mark, actually. :\ Although as femn mentioned above, he doesn't make them well-researched actual sociopaths who act consistently with such a label.

[(Anonymous)]

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