[ SECRET POST #2394 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 038 secrets from Secret Submission Post #342.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I have real, enormous problems with calling it love, let alone sincere love. I'll grant it probably felt real and sincere to him, but I don't think you can call it love without respect, and willingly committing to the genocide of a group while having that one special exception who is of course different -- still shows a fundamental lack of respect for who that one exception is as a person, no matter how large a pedestal you have them on.

[(Anonymous)]

A+, "this, so hard," and all of the like. Have an internet brownie.

[(Anonymous)]

That's definitely fair (and I think that's what I was trying to get at with the caveat about "well-expressed love").

I don't know. I think Snape's feelings existed and were sincere and could be called love in the way that we commonly use that word. Was it love in the highest, realest sense? No. That's a good point and I agree.

[(Anonymous)]

Your idea of love is the ideal, what we should all strive toward. Unfortunately, people are not perfect, many of us are actually quite broken and so we can't quite manage to reach the ideal. Sure, we're not Snape-level or Nazis or racists, those are the extremest of extreme, but we can be selfish, destructive, disrespectful to those we love, perhaps without meaning to, perhaps without even realizing it. Love for others is an extension of love for yourself; if you don't even prioritize emotional well-being in yourself, how can you conceive it for other people? But if you can't accept that these feelings, even as badly expressed as they are, are still considered love, then you're saying only perfectly healthy, well-adjusted people are capable of love.

[(Anonymous)]

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Stop trying to think of love as necessarily any better or worse than other emotions and maybe you will get why this is not true.

[(Anonymous)]

Except if love really isn't elevated above other emotions, people wouldn't give such a shit about Snape's "love" being chalked up to obsession and/or desire.

[herongale]

I kinda want to say, "stop romanticizing love, goddammit!"

But instead I'll say this: human beings are animals. All the feelings we have are animal feelings. Love included. This is not to denigrate either animals OR feelings, but to say this: feelings are subjective and in real life you probably understand that you can't really tell people what or how to feel (or rather, you can TRY, but I'm sure you like most people know that feelings are not something you can coerce out of someone, let alone simply make go away by saying they are the wrong feelings for a situation or that someone isn't good enough to have certain feelings). With fictional characters, it's a little easier to define their feelings since we get to have more of an interior view, but even so it's clear that Snape himself regards his feelings for Lily as nothing other than the grandest, most epic of loves... a love so big that FOR HIM it made him moderate his otherwise IN HIS VIEW fully justified sense of genetic superiority, working for a cause HE DIDN'T EVEN AGREE WITH ALL THAT MUCH just because it was what "she" would have wanted.

See, he had all the respect in the WORLD for Lily the person... it's just that to him, "Lily the person" was NOT the same thing as "Lily the person born of muggle blood." This makes him a hypocrite and also makes him kind of pathetically ignorant, but morality is NOT a prerequisite for whether someone can feel true love or not. Love isn't some kind of higher spiritual thing for everyone, nor does it have to be: in its simplest and purest form love is simply a desire to always be together with someone and to be regarded well by that someone. That's all it is, or has to be. I would argue that Snape's love can't be called "noble" or "respectful" in any form, but that still doesn't make it not love because THOSE SENTIMENTS ARE NOT THE ROOT OF WHAT LOVE IS.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd argue that he didn't have much respect for "Lily the person" either, even leaving aside his hypocrisy on her muggle blood. The way he denigrated Petunia and each time hand-waved the issue that Lily disliked seeing her sister get hurt or upset with her. The way he ignored her legit concerns about his friends and what they did to people like her. The way it never seemed to cross his mind that his treatment of people like her (calling "everyone else of [her] birth Mudblood") just might bother her. The way he didn't give a shit if James and Harry died so long as Lily lived, which however romantic that might seem to some, completely disregards Lily as a person with feelings of her own. The way he treated her son. The way he ripped Lily's picture out of a family photo that didn't belong to him, to keep for himself. Actually, I'm drawing a complete blank on even one occasion where Snape demonstrates respect for Lily as a person with wants, convictions, concerns, family, people in her life she cares about who aren't him. Respect for Lily the Dead Ideal is in no way the same thing: he still seemed incapable of grasping what Lily the person might want, as opposed to what Lily the Dead Ideal might be impressed by.

Seriously, the closest example that comes to mind is when she was worried about Hogwarts and asked if her being Muggleborn would matter, and he reassured her it wouldn't; and that turned out to be a complete lie.

So really here, if not respect, then what exactly makes love any different than desire, obsession, affection, greed, any other emotion? I absolutely believe Snape felt a mixture of the last four toward Lily, that he felt them strongly. I definitely believe he wanted her regard. (To the point where he resented her caring about anyone but him, even.) That's all I think he felt for her. If love isn't any different from them, it shouldn't be a big deal to say so.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, but of course he respected her. Let me put on my Obi-Wan Robe and explain how.

He respected her so much that he kept her away from her muggle sister whenever possible in order that the relationship wouldn't cause her problems and that the separation from her into the "real" world (wizarding world is much realer than muggle world) wouldn't hurt so much. He respected her enough to try and protect her from the death of the notorious abuser James Potter (that is how Snape saw him remember). he respected her enough to flat out lie about his wonderful Hogwarts in order to make it seem more magical for her.

Oh Snape respected the hell out of Lily, from a certain point of view (i.e. his). You see a great many of the truths we cling to depend upon our point of view. /Obi Wan

[(Anonymous)]

Obi-Wan, I agree he was using that kind of twisted reasoning. That's the whole point. This wouldn't make it respect of Lily as a person. This would be him imposing his perspective on her and believing that she's secretly happy or grateful for it even as he watches her be visibly upset or angry or frustrated over it and flat-out ignores the evidence that she's not pleased. Erasing her actual person and replacing her with his own idea of who he thought Lily was, only yeah, he'd probably have been doing it when she was alive and supposedly his best friend as well as dead. Snape in his mind could've respected the hell out of his ideal of Lily (though tbf, we don't see much evidence of that either until the real Lily's death). But respecting his imaginary Lily isn't respecting Lily the person herself.

[(Anonymous)]

There is no objective personhood, there is only interpretation. How you see you, how I see you, how Mrs Miggins from the pie shoppe sees you. All are equally the same. That is the problem. If human experience was not inherently subjective, then there would be a lot fewer problems.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, that stops making sense when talking about one person outright acting on what they believe another person will appreciate, despite what that other person is actually telling them. Without anything to discredit their word, that other person IS the final say on that situation. Lily absolutely would be the objective final arbiter on herself as a person and what she really wanted. As outside observers, there's no reason or evidence ever given to think her actual reactions to Snape's demonstrations of "respect" are phony, or that the Lily who would appreciate him keeping her from her muggle sister and so on exists anywhere outside of his own head.

[(Anonymous)]

But there was something to discredit her word, that she obviously did not understand all the implications of what she did. If she doesn't truly understand something then, as well as magnanimously forgiving Lily for that transgression, Snape had to save her by bringing her under his protection (read possession). /ObiWan

That is a genuine human thought process. There is no objectivity in human thought processes, there is only subjectivity.

[(Anonymous)]

That's true, but there's a reason delusional schizophrenics (for example) aren't considered reliable sources of information. Their thoughts and reality are legitimate to them, but if they don't line up with reality as perceived by the person they're acting upon and 99.9% of impartial passive observers, it's past subjectivity to say they're probably mistaken.

I still completely agree that Snape's thought process was along these lines, but he's a construct in a fictional situation which includes the actual POV of his love, not just his idea of her POV. A situation that's being judged by outside readers. We're given no reason to doubt the truth of Lily's words, and no evidence that Snape's thought process have basis in the reality presented in The Prince's Tale or the books overall. Snape may have felt he respected Lily greatly, but Lily clearly would have disagreed based on their friendship when she was alive. As outside readers, it's made objectively clear to us that Snape's thought processes are skewed at best, and we can say that the person he respected was not the Lily we're shown.

(Though again, even looking at the situation through Snape's Mind it doesn't demonstrate a lot of respect -- there's little to indicate what about her does impress him, aside from her having magic. It's all about what he can do to ~save her from herself.)

[herongale]

But... love ISN'T different from all those other emotions. It's obviously a more POSITIVE emotion than some of those things, but in terms of the human quality of being a "feeling" it's basically the same. And so what if his love was greedy, obsessive, selfish? That still doesn't make it not love.

I think to me that what it comes down to is whether I believe that people (and, by extension, fictional characters) are allowed to name their own feelings. All that really matters to ME is that Snape himself labels what he felt as "love." It doesn't make his love admirable or anything (although I'd argue that there were at least some admirable qualities mixed in there... Snape had a slight bit of nuance and complexity, more than Rowling put into most of her characters anyway). Look, I'm not any kind of Snape/Lily shipper nor am I a Snape apologist but I don't find it helpful to deny that anti-heros or villains can experience the full complement of full human emotions, even if they express those emotions in less than ideal ways.

I'm not opposed to adding adjectives to define his love in negative ways. I'm just opposed to anyone who thinks they can say it wasn't love, because it suggests to me an unrealistic and overly idealized understanding of what love is, one that isn't actually at all helpful in the real world where bad people fall in love ALL THE TIME.

So yeah. I call it obsessive love. I call it greedy love. I call his love selfish and possessive. But I don't say that it wasn't love.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you, but not because I have a romantic and idealized perception of love. I believe that love in a relationship is something that develops with time and what Snape felt for Lily would more accurately be describe as a crush or infatuation. What he feels is romantic and idealized and a far cry from the true feeling of love that can develop between two people who are actually together.