fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2406 ]

[ SECRET POST #2406 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2406 ⌋

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If we're talking oppression olympics I score pretty high ('only' got middleclass and white going for me, which okay I admit is a big only), but I've always found there's one aspect of me that's most affected my ability to be treated equally and get on in the world, and lead to the most stress.

Which is being awkward and terrible with people.

Anon for obvious reasons, because pointing this out in any feminist or queer friendly space is death to your credibility and inevitably leads to you getting shouted down.

I...don't think it's really a privilege issue? ~~Unless we're now saying developing great social skills is a privilege.~~

Not saying it doesn't suck, or effect your life greatly but...It's really not related to privilege.

Different anon. I wouldn't put it in part of the privilege debate but there could be something said about how we reward certain types of socialization and chastise others. Like the whole introversion versus extroversion debate.

Like yeah I agree it's not a privilege issue, but it may be something worth examining?

Oh, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't. I'm actually very familiar with that part because I'm very much an introvert and it does sometimes cause problems. I was just saying that it isn't really a privilege issue since that's what the OP seemed to be saying to me.

It's a really interesting one.

In one way, being socially awkward can indicate you're on the low end of the privilege see-saw - it can come from socialized lack of confidence and, as you say, not being of the golden group whom we reward for being themselves.

On the other hand, remaining shy, awkward and anxious can sometimes be indicative of class privilege, IME. If you're poor and socially awkward there often comes a point where you have to learn coping mechanisms for dealing with people or you don't get work and then you don't eat.

I'm not technically poor, but almost all the jobs I've had required being friendly and sociable: retail, restaurant, desk reception... and I've remained extremely shy and awkward in spite of it all. It just made the jobs that much harder every day, to keep pretending not to be shy and trying not to be awkward.

I dunno. Nobody is just naturally good with people. It's a skill that you learn. And it can be affected by a lot of things like say, anxiety disorder, but in that case you'd be saying "My anxiety disorder affects my ability to be treated equally and get on in the world."

But I don't think being awkward in itself is on the same level as being queer.

I guess I can understand this line of thinking because I've always thought the reasons behind my worst problems are because I'm overweight and unattractive.

Some of that could tie to sexism, but it doesn't seem to tie to me being queer or anything else.

So yeah like I'm queer, but I'm more upset that I'm not pretty?

You sound like me. But it's connected to the fact that I have social anxiety, as in officially diagnosed and medicated, so... well, that's still not really a privilege thing I guess but, have you seen a therapist or psychiatrist? Because you might also social anxiety.

Which has little if anything to do with them being feminist or queer (unless they have thin knowledge of the first or are just trend chasers with the later).

Ideologies just tend to attract assholes. I'm a die-hard feminist but I have to avoid most feminist spaces because the assholes are the loudest and the nonassholes tend to let the assholes run things.

Not quite on topic, but I had this huge breakthrough realisation about a week ago; everyone does awkward, terrible shit with people, but the extroverts have figured out how not to be bothered by that. 'Awkward' isn't what you're doing or even your level of people skills, it's how much pain we feel over it. I literally feel almost physical pain from mangled social interactions, but lately I keep watching people do astronomically clumsy social things and breeze right through it. I am kind of in awe and at first I wondered if I was surrounded by sociopaths. (Which is possible, but not that likely).

imo the problem with queer spaces is that they've got this constant tension between being a political faction and being a dating space. The 'dating space' side is often deeply conformist and mainstream. I tried doing LGBT stuff in my first year of university, and then in my second year I moved in with three other bisexuals who had all left 'LGBT space' and never looked back.

Eh, in my experience that's not completely the driving factor. There's also a lot of the fact that people just Don't Get what being queer is. For example, I've had guys who didn't seem to get that I wasn't a lesbian because I 'just hadn't met a man who was man enough' yet - one even going as far as to start stalking me over it, plus the fact there is still a lot homophobia [and transphobia], along with some other nasty things that people who, at least claim to be a part of the group, will do.

tl;dr: The 'problem' with queer spaces isn't that they're both political and dating spaces, at least in my experience.

Why would guys like that be causing you problems in a queer space? o_0 I mean, why were they even there?

Are you saying that going to queer spaces makes one a target for harassment from people who don't understand?

That sounds like a problem born of being out and of intolerance/ignorance rather then a queer space problem?

Extroverts have not figured out how not to be bothered by that.

Extroverts just don't stop having a busy social life because of it.

I"m sure there are a hell of a lot of extroverts with secret embarrassment.

Edited 2013-08-05 04:25 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is at least possible, and probably even likely, that many extroverts do not feel the same kind of embarrassment that I do, or if they do, it does not last for the same length of time. I just don't see any reason for supposing that everyone responds to social situations the same way.

I just don't see any reason for supposing that introverts and extroverts have two entirely different psychologies rather than different social desires.

I consider myself a bit of an introvert. I prefer to be alone or with just one or two people. This is how I'm most comfortable. But every time I've said that people are surprised, because I tend to be social when I'm around people. I mean genuine surprise, not oh-let's-be-polite surprise.

I agonize over social mistakes and then crack jokes at parties and give advice to other grad students. Somehow I doubt extroverts are that different.

Stop assuming all the extroverts are those kids at the popular table you felt uncomfortable around.

Edited 2013-08-05 04:44 (UTC)

I think we're talking past each other a little bit here?

I'm certainly not saying that extroverted people never feel embarrassment, more that the reaction to it and the experience of it and the degree to which certain things are felt is different in some cases. I don't want to assume that my particular experiences and feelings are those that everyone has. Not that some people have fundamentally different feelings, or that extroverts never feel embarrassment. But I don't think it's impossible that some people feel embarrassment more acutely, more strongly, more often, for a longer period of time compared to others - and I definitely don't want to assume that everyone feels embarrassment the same way i do, because why should they? And the same is true for social things generally, not just embarrassment. I don't think that's fundamentally unreasonable.

Also, what in the conversation made it necessary for you to say that I only hold my position because I was a loser in high school and am still working out resentments against the popular kids? Did I insult you in some way? If I did, I apologize.

Sure, everyone responds to things differently but you can't just say "all introverts are one way and all extroverts are another". Extroverts are definitely capable of embarrassment, and yeah, it's the same 'kind' as yours. Extroverts were bullied in school. Extroverts have anxiety, depression, and other disorders that affect the way they interact with people. All 'extrovert' means is 'someone who feels energized when around other people', it doesn't mean they are naturally good at all social interaction.

For reference I'm an introvert who loves going to huge events and talking to a lot of people, but needs a lot of rest afterwards. And I don't know how long you feel embarrassment but over the years I've kinda taught myself not to be embarrassed about things that happened years ago? But sometimes it still happens, and I don't see why it couldn't happen to someone who was extroverted.

I should have made it more clear that I wasn't trying to make any kind of universal judgment about extroverts and introverts. Should have been clear.

But sometimes it still happens, and I don't see why it couldn't happen to someone who was extroverted.

The point I was trying to make, I think, was pretty much this: I don't see why it couldn't happen, but I also don't see why it necessarily has to happen that way for everyone, either. I don't want to assume that everyone functions the same, and that's what I read Chard's post as doing (possibly misreading it).

I read a book called " The Introverts Dilemma." According to the book, an introvert is someone who gains energy in being alone and is often more interested in the depth of subject then breadth. Extroverts, on the other hand gain energy from being with people and are generally interested in the breadth of a subject.

Extroversion and Introversion is mostly a spectrum. There are plenty of social introverts and shy extroverts. In the book there was a section about how the worst possible thing to be was a extrovert with social anxiety because you couldn't recharge yourself without being in pain. Introversion/extroversion is all about where you get your energy from, and not necessarily about how well you actually do with people.

Realizing that everyone does awkward, terrible social shit is indeed critical (I have to remind myself of it every time I think everyone but me is awesome at being social), but I'd say it's less about how much pain different people feel over bungled social interaction, and more about whether or not that pain is stronger than whatever compulsion they have to be social. My mother is an extrovert who constantly agonizes over her mistakes and embarrassments to me all the time, but unlike me, it just isn't in her nature to retreat into herself. It's like she literally can't stop being a social person to some extent; even if she limits herself to casual associates and striking up conversations with people on the street instead of close friends, she's still got that constant itch to interact with people no matter how badly it goes, which I just can't relate to.

Edited 2013-08-05 06:43 (UTC)

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[ SECRET POST #2406 ]

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da

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Have you considered that your feminist and queer friends are assholes?

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I'm confused by this

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