[ SECRET POST #2417 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2417 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 018 secrets from Secret Submission Post #345.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cadremage]

Just as a woman who has "masculine" traits isn't necessarily trans*, a woman who has "masculine" traits is also not necessarily "genderfluid."

I feel like a lot of the discussion that surrounds "genderfluidity" is ignoring a rather big component of gender, namely that it's socially constructed. The conversation plays at challenging stereotypes and confronting gender issues, but it actually operates within the same bullshit framework that gives rise to those stereotypes and issues.

If your gender identity is actually fluid to a particular extent, or runs contrary to how you prefer to pass physically, then that's great and it should be accepted. But don't assume that everyone who steps outside of traditional roles or behaviors or interests or what-have-you is the same way. That's...kind of exactly the sort of thing you're complaining about.

[(Anonymous)]

It seems for most people, a sense of gender is innate, but most cis people don't even notice it since it conflates. "Masculinity" and "femininity" are so often fairly innate too, being that those with identities that don't conflate neatly with them have very strong inclinations a lot of the time towards these. Whereas gender roles are socially constructed. I just wish nothing was compulsory or "normal".

[chardmonster]

I hate the idea that "not completely bubbly and covered in makeup" translates to "not feminine."

These people have really fucked up ideas of what is feminine.

[(Anonymous)]

amen to that. i remember back when i was 16 i didn't get accepted for a job because i wasn't "feminine enough", which apparently translated to "not bubbly enough" and "didn't wear a skirt to the job interview".

i wish i had known more about discrimination back then, because i didn't know i could do anything about it. but i do remember being really angry that they considered me "less" of a woman than someone who was chirpy and wearing a dress >_>

[(Anonymous)]

THIS so much. The whole genderfluid/genderqueer thing actually bothers me a great deal because it's so tied in to gender roles and gender essentialism. I'm a cis woman who has short hair, never wears makeup, prefers pants to skirts and dresses, is athletic, and has many interests that are generally considered to be more "masculine" (video games, firearms, cars, etc.). That doesn't mean I'm not female.

[(Anonymous)]

That doesn't mean genderfluid/genderqueer people are invalid, I hope you weren't saying that. Just that not everyone or even most who seem to straddle gender roles is.

[(Anonymous)]

There is no such thing as "genderqueer" though. I think a lot of people confuse gender(which is biological) with gender roles (which are socially contructed) and think that just because they don't act stereotypically male or female it means they must be something else and that just isn't true.

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly. You can be a man and be feminine and still identify as male, just as you can be a woman and masculine and still identify as female. Liking things that are typically associated with the opposite gender or presenting in a manner that is more similar to the opposite gender has nothing to do with your gender identity, because gender identity isn't about what you do or like or how you present. It's about what you, personally, feel that you are.

[(Anonymous)]

But a lot of genderqueer people really do act stereotypically masculine or feminine. They just don't identify with women or men. Their genitals mean the same to them as, say, their height or eye color. In the same way you can say that stereotypically masculine mental characteristics don't make you a man, someone else can say that stereotypically masculine physical characteristics don't necessarily make you a man either. Even among women, you have people with very different body types and sometimes men have bodies that come closer to the feminine ideal than some women's. Then why on earth would this physical ideal be THE one and only thing which defines your gender?

[(Anonymous)]

"But a lot of genderqueer people really do act stereotypically masculine or feminine. They just don't identify with women or men."
Can you clarify what you mean by not "identifying" with men and women?

"Their genitals mean the same to them as, say, their height or eye color.",
Yes, because that's how it's supposed to be. If you don't have a feeling of dsyphoria over your genitals then it just means you were born with the correct body.

"Then why on earth would this physical ideal be THE one and only thing which defines your gender?"
Your brain defines your gender and almost always matches your body's physical sex.
Very rarely a person may be born with a body that does not match the that gender. This is a medical condition known as transsexualism.

[(Anonymous)]

What I mean is that a person can be ok with their genitalia but at the same time think that's what's between their legs in nobody's fucking business, so they can call themselves whatever they want and use whichever pronouns they like. Is that a problem to you?

[(Anonymous)]

They can call themselves whatever the hell they want but that doesn't make them a different gender.

[(Anonymous)]

Define "gender".

[(Anonymous)]

The body of a developing fetus starts as a female and will remain female unless it is masculinized by the presence of testosterone.
The brain goes through this process after the physical sex is determined and this is what's considered the gender.

People don't have to follow societies expectations of males and females but that doesn't mean they aren't one. They can look/act masculine, feminine or androgynous if that's how they want to present themselves and that's okay but personal expression has nothing to do with gender.

[(Anonymous)]

Where do intersex people fit into this?

[gamma_orionis]

I feel like a lot of the discussion that surrounds "genderfluidity" is ignoring a rather big component of gender, namely that it's socially constructed.

So much this.

[(Anonymous)]

Saying gender is *entirely* socially constructed ignores the actual living reality of those who find that they are living in a body not confluent with their internal gender. This doesn't mean that there aren't masculine trans women or feminine trans men, because masculinity and femininity are different concepts from an internal sense of gender.

[(Anonymous)]

This is so odd to me.

There was a distinction made between gender and sex. The reason for this is that gender is not static. It changes depending on time and place, and often has little to do with whether someone feels themselves to be a man or a woman. Masculinity and femininity were gender; that internal sense concerning what body a person should be in was sex.

Now, that's become bad to do. Everything is gender now. And I don't get it.

There's a reason that different terminology was used for the part that's socially constructed and the part that's not. It's because, well, they are different. I don't see how it benefits anyone to use one term for both.

[(Anonymous)]

If gender is socially constructed, then being a certain gender really does come down to conforming to stereotypical gender roles, because no one is born a certain gender.