fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2427 ]

[ SECRET POST #2427 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2427 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 068 secrets from Secret Submission Post #347.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Is it my imagination, or do the japanese seem much more willing to portray 'strong' female characters with clear rippling muscles, and something closer to the actual physique that they would have then the River style waifs you get in the west.

I mean I can't really think of an equivalent outside of perhaps Sarah Connor from the second terminator, or Vasquez which speaks to how unusual it is, whereas in a number of recent animes I've seen this.

And I was suitably impressed by their ability to actual make a multifaceted antagonist instead of falling into the standard two dimensional 'strong' characters you get here.

No, they're just as averse to it as the West, if not more. The thing you watched (which I haven't) must be an exception like Sarah Connor or Vasquez.

For every Revy in Black Lagoon you have ten moe schoolgirls uguuing all over the place.

You see this chick?

She's the lead in Mirror's Edge 2. A lot of Japanese gamers were complaining that she's too ugly. This is what they consider ugly.

It isn't better in Japan. Don't let an idealized experience of anime fool you into thinking things are rosy. Sexism is worse in Japan. That's actually a good reason to support the positive stuff coming out there.

Also, can we talk about how SUGOI that whole thing was

Watch Canaan, people. There's plenty of subtext if you're into that but more importantly GUNS

Japan is extremely sexist but calling Faith ugly is always not a matter or example of Japan being sexist. You know how Japan is more or less horrible at designing good-looking black or latin@ people and how they just go for the stereotypes and what seems exotic to them? It's the same with the West and designing Asian characters.

It's the same reason a lot of Asian people consider Lucy Liu to not be beautiful, because she's what white people see when they think 'exotic! other! notlikeus! beauty' and that's not generally what's considered beautiful in the East.

That's why people like Quentin Tarantino have no problem casting Lucy Liu as Japanese in Kill Bill. Or why Zhang Ziyi who has the same kind of "exotic, other" features is in Memoirs of a Geisha. Because white people think it's exotic beauty and all Asians look the same, right? Slanty eyes? Porcelain skin? Flat faces? Skinny-like-board? Then just ignore the fact that other cultures have different beauty norms, or beauty norms at all because they know better what a hot Asian looks like, than Asian people themselves.

/rant

This reminds me of the time when my friends in Asia found out Dichen Lachman was considered a hot Asian woman.

The unanimous response:

"WUT"

I know what you mean--you're right. I guess you had to see the translations. This wasn't just "oh, she's ugly," it's "HOW DARE THE PROTAGONIST OF THIS VIDEO GAME NOT BE SEXY TO ME, JAPANESE GUY." It wasn't the opinion that she's ugly, it's the way it was expressed and the baggage attached to that.

It's the difference between not liking Chell's (in Portal) outfit and wishing it was cuter, and insisting that she's covered up in sensible attire because the people making the game hate guys looking at her and are intentionally trying to make her as unsexy as possible, it's a conspiracy, how dare they.

Edited 2013-08-25 21:58 (UTC)

AYRT

I'd agree with you there. Raging and demanding that the protag be sexy and pleasant to me personally is just entitled shitbrat behavior no matter who it's from. That's a broader issue and not a matter specific to Japan and a bad example to use in response to original anon about Japan specifically though. And a lot of "Faith is weird looking" comments that I've heard are from Asian people going "why are her eyes so slanty? WTF" and I didn't know which you were referring to.

I'd also agree that Japan and Asia in general do not portray physically strong women well at all though. Aside from the uguuu moeblob characters who aren't trying to be strong, physical strength in women is mostly used as comedy (see: jdramas where the girl beats people up lolol what a tomboy) or to make the woman seem 'manly' and therefore not attractive (see: every offensive trans* joke) - and Japan is just as bad as the West about giving girls superpowers that let them wield huge hammers with the physique of a 9 year old and shoving them in bikini armor because muscles are for men.

Something that bothers me about this:

Why should anyone get to determine what "hot" means? Why should the fact that East Asian people don't consider Lucy Liu or Ziyi Zhang* "hot" mean that they shouldn't get cast in certain roles? Is their hotness or lack thereof their only defining attribute? Additionally, are you sure that Zhang isn't considered "hot" in East Asia? She had a lead role in 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon,' which was not filmed solely with the West in mind (huge hit in China, natch).

*The outcry over her role in 'Memoirs of a Geisha' wasn't over the fact that she wasn't attractive; it was over the fact that she was Chinese. Chinese people freaked out over the fact that she was A) playing a Japanese woman and B) portrayed as having an attraction to a Japanese man. This struck ethnocentric chords, not "beauty norm" chords.

"You see this chick?

She's the lead in Mirror's Edge 2. A lot of Japanese gamers were complaining that she's too ugly. This is what they consider ugly.

It isn't better in Japan. Don't let an idealized experience of anime fool you into thinking things are rosy. Sexism is worse in Japan."

Japanese people saying Faith is ugly has nothing to do with sexism, it has to do with different beauty standards. As I said, it was a bad argument to make because like you said, nobody gets to decide what hot means and some Japanese people saying Faith is ugly is not automatically sexism.

I was explaining why she would be considered ugly or at least strange-looking to a lot of Asian people- because she is tailored to the white-Western view of "Asian beauty" which is also seen in p. much all Asian Hollywood actresses. Which is true. I did not say that she is not beautiful at all, I said that she is not conventionally beautiful to the Japanese.

Do you think that Lucy Liu and Ziyi Zhang were only cast in their respective roles because someone in the West thought they were hot, and not because each read for her part and happened to be the most impressive?

Allow me to rephrase your very leading question in my answer.

"I believe Lucy Liu and Zhang Ziyi were cast in their respective roles because of a combination of their acting ability and their looks, but, I also believe that other Asian actresses, with looks that would be more conventionally attractive to people who live in Asia, given the same amount of acting ability, would have been overlooked by white Hollywood because they would have been considered by white Hollywood to look less 'exotic'."

Of course it's leading. What you originally said gives the impression that you believe Lucy Liu and Ziyi Zhang were chosen, at least in part, because of their looks, and the question was intended to assess that. Your answer proves that this impression was correct.

Ziyi Zhang is not considered unattractive in East Asian circles. People were upset because she was not Japanese. The point was to illustrate that you chose a poor example.

Furthermore, you are not making a very good case for this not being at least in part about sexism. If a female actor can lose or gain a role depending upon whether or not certain people find her attractive, then that is sexism. The fact that her attractiveness or lack thereof does not correspond to beauty standards in a certain part of the world doesn't change that.

I'm talking about the West constantly exotifying Asian women and demanding that the exotification be accepted.

You're talking about how beauty standards are sexist, and how any beauty standards at all are sexist things.

I don't feel there's any point in continuing this, as it's become obvious we're arguing at entirely different things here.

So, a western company making a game with, most likely, western fans in mind and not doing massive changes to a model that - they openly stated was not supposed to be "supermodel" attractive because the asian fans thought she wasn't attractive is the west demanding people agree with their standards of beauty? Even though a number of factors between both western and eastern beauty actually match up?

[Because, remember - the comments were mostly focused on her beauty, not how realistic she looked]

That is not what you stated you were talking about two comments ago. You stated that your entire point revolved around the fact that beauty standards are different in different places.

You know what's obvious? When people don't respond the way you want, you move the goalposts. Good job.

SA

Oh, btw: arguing that it's okay for Japanese fans of a game to dislike a female character because she's not "attractive" to them but then decrying Western exotification of Asian women is absolutely fucking ridiculous. Either it's okay to judge women based on their appearance or it's not. Sort that shit out.

"Japanese people saying Faith is ugly has nothing to do with sexism, it has to do with different beauty standards. As I said, it was a bad argument to make because like you said, nobody gets to decide what hot means and some Japanese people saying Faith is ugly is not automatically sexism."

Um, it has everything to do with sexism.

Japanese men calling certain women ugly IS about sexism.

What exactly do you think is beautiful in China and Japan? Zhang Ziyi is absolutely famous and considered beautiful (and bitchy, but that's another issue) in China. Sure, standards of beauty differ a little, so what is it in the East? Porcelain skin, skinny-like-board. Also, childlike appearance with big plastic surgery eyes to make them look more white. If the West showcases Asian women who actually have natural features, good for them. And why are you bothered by Lucy Liu not being considered as beautiful in Asia? That's Asia's problem, not Lucy Liu's.

Not sure if it makes a difference to your thesis, but Lucy Liu's character in Kill Bill was half-Chinese.

Canaan is surprisingly underrated.

I just stumbled across it looking for more modern military/espionage anime without any recs, and wandered away thinking it was probably the best straight action anime I watched last year.

And actually managed to pull off a satisfying conclusion which tied up all the threads, but still left an impression of things continuing on without the viewer, and comfortably set things up for a sequel (which I guess is never coming given this came out in like 2008).

She still has giant bug eyes, childlike features, and is a waif, though. Where is the muscle in that picture supposed to be?

Because marketing

jump to 7:40 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tllRe3Gz0lY

Ah... no. Japan is extremely sexist, and more sexist than even America. Actually, more sexist by a LOT. Strong women in real life get a lot of crap. The standard of beauty in Japan is tiny waist, short, and childlike features.

That being said, I do agree that anime is an outlet that differs significantly from their live action media, in that anime has the potential to be more liberal, and break away from societal norms more. I think a lot of anime is really revolutionary in a lot of ways. Not all, granted, and the majority of anime still doesn't treat women very well, but there are still a significant amount of anime that are amazing with strong women.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2427 ]

Just finished watching Canaan

Re: Just finished watching Canaan

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Re: Just finished watching Canaan