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[ SECRET POST #2474 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2474 ⌋

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you're talking about personhood though. you're basically saying you don't see babies as people and that's why you'd be more inclined to save a puppy. personhood is nothing but a legal construct. if you're stuck on how personable a baby is, then the same would thus apply, for you, to other human beings who, for whatever reason, are mentally equatable to babies. and i'm in turn saying that that mentality is a slippery slope.

OP here

Yes, but I would hardly impose it on others so I don't see what difference it makes. I'm not writing, establishing, or enforcing laws, nor am I pushing my views on anyone. What does it hurt anyone that I cannot relate to babies? Even the babies aren't old enough to understand that I cannot relate to them. If they are advanced enough to understand what that means, they likely aren't babies any more.

Are you suggesting there aren't some people that are mentally equatable to babies?

no, there definitely are people who are mentally equatable to babies, but they are still people regardless, as are babies. you more or less just said so yourself in your wording.

anyway, there is no other definition of personhood except a legal one. you are probably referring to some other construct. it wouldn't be humanity, because that is a biological term. overall it sounds like you are concluding that some human lives are worth less than others and it all depends on their mental workings, structure, etc. so then this definition would thus apply to other mentalities. for instance, i could define a human life as less than another for choosing to rescue a puppy over my young son or daughter. in other words it's entirely subjective and you shouldn't apply it to real-world situations because that is the slippery slope, right there. by applying it to real-world situations you are setting yourself up for making those actions, should they arise. this may not be a problem with you personally but other people who share similar mindsets go on to hold public office and make laws and change lives around them, for better or worse. basically my point is that this line of thinking does have an impact and it's questionable at best.

i don't relate to babies either, that's not the problem. dehumanising someone for being unrelatable is where you run into issues, imo.

Edited 2013-10-12 05:08 (UTC)

I toss the words around because they're casual use. If I were being formal about it I'd probably make one up. What Wikipedia has to say:

"A person is a being, such as a human, that has certain capacities or attributes constituting personhood, which in turn is defined differently by different authors in different disciplines, and by different cultures in different times and places."

Emphasis mine.

My definitions differ from yours and I think that's fine. This figurative meaning of personhood has nothing to do with legalities. Seeing as you don't know how I define it, it's a little presumptuous to sweep it away as a slippery slope. I stated a few examples above in the thread:

"...sense of self, identity, object permanence, and all those other things that infants lack..."

I don't feel criteria such as these are reaching for much.

what that quote means is that personhood has different definitions, depending on what culture you're looking at. that doesn't take away the fact that it is a legal term and is thus objective when you are looking at each nation-state's laws. saying you don't think a baby is a person is fine i guess but you're objectively wrong in all major industrialised counties.

but anyway you have more or less confirmed that your criteria here is all about one's mental state, which has nothing to do with personhood, so the rest of my previous comment still stands as well.

I never claimed to be correct in all major industrialised countries. I understand "personhood" in legal terms isn't how I'd define a person, but I understand why those laws exist: to protect human beings (not necessarily persons, as in the case of babies). And I agree with protecting human beings.

My entire point is that "person" is not entirely a legal word. It has use in philosophy and many other areas besides law. I reiterate that it's the figurative use and not the legal use. Before we can go further I think you must first understand that.

no, your point was that you don't think babies are people. they are objectively people. there is no time in their existences as living, functioning organisms that they are not people. you are attempting to dehumanise them to justify your philosophical choice.

when personhood is discussed in philosophy it is with legalities in mind. in this case law and philosophy are intertwined, so yes, even in your scenario, it is still a legal term.

So my opinion that I cannot relate to babies as people and don't consider them people is now: dehumanising others to fit my philosophical "choices" as though I can will myself to relate to babies, and I am on the slippery slope to denying them legal personhood because I might get into political office and make laws about it?

Aren't we blowing this a little bit out of proportion, here?

I don't believe this is going any further.

Aren't we blowing this a little bit out of proportion, here?

no, but i like your logical fallacy. it's a lovely shade of missing-the-point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood#Western_Philosophy

Here are some examples of the use of "person" in a totally non-legal sense, if you would like to look at them.

these examples are all rooted in legalities. there is no need to define personhood without legal implications involved.

even if you wish to debate otherwise, each major philosopher listed in your link defines personhood such that infants would fall under their definition, and there is no need to discuss them unless arguing against the idea that babies aren't people.

overall i just don't see what's so difficult about op owning up to their hypothetical decisions; it seems they have a problem with their own idea, enough that they must dehumanise babies to justify their preference of puppies.

Hmm, I'll bite. This is all confusing me. What exactly are you asking OP to own up to? Making a hypothetical decision? Didn't they do that in the first post?

i mean without the unnecessary attempts at justifying the decision by claiming that it's ok because babies aren't even people anyway.

like honestly i don't see a HUGE problem with the decision itself; i personally would opt to save the baby if i could only save one, but only because the impact the baby's loss would have on the baby's family would be far greater than that of the puppy's family. and if it was my baby then obviously i'm picking the baby. but like... if i was miles away from anybody else besides the baby, and if both creatures had no family or ties to this world, i might hesitate, since there are a lot of consequences to either decision. who's keeping this baby, if i save it? obviously me, it would end up being my baby in this case, and idk if i'm up for caring for some random baby. that's a huge investment of time and resources that i'm not always willing to give.

ok that doesn't really matter my point here is that i don't care about op's decision itself. but if op's only reason for picking the puppy over the baby is because they don't think the baby is a person, that's kind of .. ??????? it just seems like an excuse to justify not giving a shit about the baby. if you don't care about random babies then whatever, like i don't get why op is trying to take away the baby's personhood to make it seem ok. a baby is a person so you're either ok with ditching that person for a puppy or you're not.

Reading back I think I see where it got lost, like...

OP gave the puppy example as an example side effect of their main issue which was being unable to relate to babies to begin with,

then you took it as OP purposely dehumanizing babies in order to rationalize choosing puppies,

except OP might have chosen kittens or piglets or anything else because the issue is that they can't relate to human babies to begin with, and given kittens vs puppies might have a tougher time?,

then OP tried to explaining why they can't relate and what stuff must be present for them to relate to things as persons, and you took it as arguing whether babies should be persons or not?

OP said like, "babies aren't relatable to me in the first place, so I will pick the puppy which I like more" and you read it like, "I picked the puppy I like then feel like I have to justify it by saying fuck it babies aren't people anyway"

I think.

It's 2 am and my brain is fried

it derailed once op said babies weren't people, because that wasn't me interpreting their comment, that was them straight up saying it .

and the issue is that babies are people. it's ok to not like babies or relate to them (i sure as heck don't) but you don't need to reduce them to something less than they are. it seemed like an attempt to escape judgment when it wasn't really necessary and kinda ended up backfiring, from the look of the thread

Hrmm.. like you say OP doesn't NEED to reduce them but I think what OP was getting at was thats how they naturally see babies anyway, as not-people, thats how it naturally is perceived for them always, they can't help it.

And they keep saying in other threads they expect people to be mad that they don't consider babies people and thats what people are doing so I don't think they're trying to escape anything so much as being like yeah they expected the judging? IDK

yeah and that's why i reminded them that babies are people

No, it was more like OP trying to articulate the way they relate (or fail to relate) to babies -- i.e., that they don't ping as "people" automatically in OP's head -- and you deciding that meant that OP wanted to oppress anyone who didn't meet certain criteria. That was where the derailment took place.

oppression never came into the discussion, your jump is awfully fallacious. op went from not identifying babies as people (which i do sometimes also, i stated as much) to directly implying that babies were not people. the two are very different; the former is an admitted subjectivity whereas the latter is making a far more objective claim.

'you are concluding that some human lives are worth less than others and it all depends on their mental workings, structure, etc. so then this definition would thus apply to other mentalities... in other words it's entirely subjective'

Absolutely. It's like that for most people. Regardless of the specific criteria, some human lives will be worth more to you than others. Your friends. The people you love. The people you know as opposed to the people you don't know. Your best friend vs. a serial killer. Would you consider them equally valuable? Are they both worth the same?

No matter what, some human lives will mean more to you. That's not inherently a bad thing. And if you claim that you'd value the life of your best friend and the life of a serial killer the same, I will outright call you a liar.

it's obviously natural to value some lives over others; my point, which i clearly stated in my other comment, was that it's subjective, and thus should be treated as such. when talking about personhood, a very objective legality, subjectivity has little to no place.

"I don't see this shirt as gray."
"It's gray, get over it."
"Yes, but I don't see it that way."

Basically your conversation. OP doesn't see babies as people, even though babies are obviously legally people. You can do nothing about this, so why are you still arguing like an idiot?

because it devolved from op not seeing them as people into arguing that they were not in fact people which is less an opinion and more a false statement of fact

eta: i also stopped arguing yesterday, the op and i haven't talked about it in several hours, it's just you coming back and missing the point with every reply you make

Edited 2013-10-12 19:48 (UTC)

anyway, there is no other definition of personhood except a legal one.

No. It is a word that HAS a legal definition, but it also has other, subjective definitions (that in no way affect any legal definition, but nonetheless exist). The word "reasonable" has a legal definition too, but I can still subjectively decide whether something is reasonable or not without recourse to a law textbook.

i clarified elsewhere that any other "definition" of personhood is directly related to legalities. i also stated that even if you wish to argue otherwise, in this instance, right here, babies are people

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