Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-10-16 06:44 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-10-16 06:44 pm
[ SECRET POST #2479 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2479 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 018 secrets from Secret Submission Post #354.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Just look it up, somewhere upwards on the thread I detailed WHO registered the continent as a SINGLE America (despite coastal borders of "Central America" being unknown at the time), in a cartographic map. It was in 1507. Spaniard Juan Ponce de León set foot on Florida in 1513. The ANCIENT colony of Jamestown in Virginia? Founded in 1607, way after everyone acknowledged America-the-Continent. It was never a term ~specially reserved~ for them.
This isn't as simple as a linguistic issue, but I do understand you're a scholar of linguistics and that's your angle to tackle that issue. Now please let's go back to history and sociology? Because words don't appear from thin air.
It's strange the way you speak so passionately about this issue, being Canadian. I knew from years before you were Canadian, but the way you're behaving was making me doubt.
I feel like I'm repeating myself like a broken record here, but I'm not looking to "convert" anyone to my worldview. (Though, not surprisingly, you're doing your best to force me to accept yours). It's just a statement. Not proselytism. "We are here too, this is our identity, and we will not be erased." Indeed, "words mean things". And the interpretation of a concept may vary wildly taking into account the context. Our interpretation is as valid as yours.
Please, pray tell me how a WOC from a Third World Country could be "culturally imperialistic" towards the biggest World Power in the Western world.
no subject
Obviously not, because I never once said that. I said it has been reserved for them, in English, for centuries. Not "in all languages" "for all of time".
Please don't put words in my mouth.
Now please let's go back to history and sociology?
Please don't resort to personal attacks. If you can't explain what you intend to convey, that's fine, but "study (x subject)" is essentially meaningless, because you have no idea if the person in question is making their argument from a position of ignorance, or if they've studied the areas in question - I have studied a great deal of history, and sociology - and have come to a different conclusion than you did.
Because words don't appear from thin air.
No, they certainly don't. The word "American" certainly didn't. It has a long history of meaning precisely what it means in English.
It's strange the way you speak so passionately about this issue, being Canadian. I knew from years before you were Canadian, but the way you're behaving was making me doubt.
Why would you assume that a Canadian would behave differently on this issue? Were you including us in the "rest of the world" that you implied agreed with you on the issue? We don't. Most Canadians are deeply offended when they're called "Americans". We're mistaken for Americans all the time, but we have our own unique views and culture and do not wish to be subsumed under the title American, because we're not from the USA.
(Though, not surprisingly, you're doing your best to force me to accept yours).
I'm not being any more or less vehement about arguing my viewpoint than you are, friend. I also already said that I can't force you to use any words you don't want to use. Demanding that other people use your terminology and erase what they perceive as their own identity - i.e. Americans calling themselves USians, Canadians calling themselves Americans - is doing a whole lot more than saying "I am here, I exist", a fact which I am certain you're aware.
If you feel that way, though, by all means let's try to change the tone here:
If everyone's interpretation is valid, how would you react to a Canadian telling you not to call them an American, because they are not an American? How would you react to someone from the USA asking you not to call them a USian, but rather an American, because that's the term they prefer? Would you respect that? Or does self-determination only apply to persons from certain nations and not others?
Please, pray tell me how a WOC from a Third World Country could be "culturally imperialistic" towards the biggest World Power in the Western world.
You're demanding that someone change their own name because that's the name you use for them in your culture. Whether or not you have the power to do that - either through political influence on the global hegemony which has some strongly anti-American sentiments in the case of many very influential, wealthy nations or appeals to precedence at a time when the Spanish Empire was the premiere world power, or some mixture of both - remains to be seen, but if you're already seeing "USian" crop up in conversation as you claim, then it might well already be working.
Ultimately: I'm going to call Americans what they want to be called. If they decide someday that USian, or US American, is okay, I'll call them that. Only they get to decide that, though. Not you or I.
And please don't call me an American -_-
no subject
- Where do you learn your sociology matters. Hell, even the political views of the professor end up being relevant - even if you disagree with them from the start. Do you know, for example, that "The Open Veins of Latin America" by Galeano used to be a banned book here during Pinochet's dicatorship, but is now mandatory High School reading?
- Your "American" is not the same than my "American". I told you on other thread of the origins of the word. It wasn't invented by the English. And it's certainly not our fault the way the English just called "America" vaguely their 13 Colonies, instead of checking the damn map.
- Of course Canadians get offended when confused with... I'll call them "people from the USA" and leave it at that for the moment. Because the prevailing association that comes to mind for a Canadian upon hearing "America" is the one they have with their neighbors. And it's NOT a good association for them. (I'm not the most well-versed in Canadian History, but I have heards such glowing reviews from people I trust that have visited there. And it's not only them, Quebec conflict nonwithstanding, you're widely regarded as a kind nation with a goverment that cares about their people. The same cannot be said about the USA.)
If I publicly make a statement like "in our culture, we consider all the people on this continent to be American", and a Canadian gets offended, I will quickly reassure them I'm not referring to the USA, but to the totality of our geography, and the shared experiences of having being places with our own indigenous people that after became colonies under the Powers of that age, and who after, attained freedom either through revolution or peaceful treaties.
(I wouldn't even touch the stuff about mixing races, because I know the statu quo for English and French colonies was to kill or banish the natives, not enslave them and then have half-breed children just to disown and put to work as it happened to us with the Spaniards; so for example that's something we don't have in common.)
As for a "Person from the USA" asking to be called an American, I'd politely present my point, and act depending on the reaction. Civilized conversation is totally possible and desirable. I want people to understand where are we coming from, not force them to adopt a name they dislike. That's not polite. Is like misgendering a trans* person on purpose. (The problem being, we both would be feeling invalidated in our identities.) Truces must be made.
- If you had bothered checking my other answers, you'd know "USian" was propposed at liberal-oriented colleges and social studies circles from the USA. They took our word "Estadounidense" and coined the neologism USian. It was not invented by Latin American people.
PS: We all have our different views and cultures, even inside our cluster of "Latin America + The Caribbean". My mom has brown skin and dark hair, and is very small. She constantly gets mistaken for Peruvian, which angers her to no end - She always snaps to answer she's Chilean and don't you forget it. But when asked: "Mom, are we Americans? And are the Peruvian also Americans?", her answer is yes, and then we start enthusiastically talking about Andino music and traditions we share with the Peruvians. We don't have the best relationship with Perú, and we can argue for hours who invented pisco (or does it better), but only the most nastily racist people here claim that we are nothing like the Peruvians. As if we didn't share all our northern culture with them.
no subject
You've given me a lot to think on. I'm still not entirely sure I agree with you, but I'll give it some consideration. I doubt USian will catch on outside strongly liberal academic circles, but US American might. Ultimately, if you can convince people from the US to adopt the new terminology, obviously, I'll use it until then... I think a fair truce would be calling people from the US "Americans" if that's what they want to be called, but also calling people from other parts of the Americas "American" if they wish to be called that (though I don't understand what's offensive about "South/Central/North American"? "American", as mentioned, is offensive to Canadians, but "North American" is not).
Wouldn't be the first word to have two meanings. That way nobody's identity is being erased.
no subject
I'm glad the discussion gave you something to mull over. Whether you end up agreeing or not, it was an excersize in critical thinking for both of us. It had been too long since I last debated anything (normally I avoid it, despite liking it, because I get anxious too easily; and it goes double if I'm not doing it in my mother language.) So I must thank you for the time and thoughts you dedicated to this. And I've been thinking a lot about possible solutions, precisely because I reckon now I was looking at the subject too much from my own perspective, indeed becoming closedminded myself.
I think I got it a little bit more when I realized that there had to be a suitable compromise, because if nobody budged, someone's identity would get pissed on. And it's shitty to erase another person's identity: Whether it was mine or of the hipotetical Person from the USA wasn't the point at all. It has to be something we agree on collectively, everything about my idea of "one single continent" had been at first about bringing people together, consensually.
(Having North/Central/South American is not offensive o/ But it's kind of divisionist.)
US-American is an agreeable compromise I think most people would be proclive to embrace if it gets more wide-spread. Sounds less radical-left than USian. It's just a matter of people don't forgetting to tack on the "US" in front of the "American" and all this wank it's solved.
Thank you for discussing this ideas with me. I can't say I had a lot of fun, but that's for family-related issues that have me constantly stressed. What I can say, is that it was definitively interesting, and got me to flex some mental muscles I had let grown complacent in recent times. So please, let me thank you, ok? :3
no subject
(I don't think the North/South/Central descriptor is meant to be divisionist - it's just plate tectonics. The seven continent theory is taught in pretty well all English-speaking countries - despite how little sense the Europe/Asia distinction still makes - so that's why so many English speakers wonder 'why "American" and not "North/South/Central American"?' The six continent theory is largely alien to us.)
Though if it's fair to append South/North/Central to "American", it should be fair to append "US", I think.
Cheers, and have a good night!