[ SECRET POST #2481 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2481 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[game of thrones]


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02.
[Star Trek, Sleepy Hollow, Elementary]


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03.


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04.
[Junjou Romantica]


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05.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

























06. [SPOILERS for Percy Jackson]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]


























07. [WARNING for suicide/self-harm]

[Slipknot]





















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #354.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Usami didn't exactly forgive himself, IIRC he apologized for his actions first.

Also, "knowing consent was not given" is debatable, for reasons explained above.

[(Anonymous)]

Right. At the very first meeting, a guy pushes you down, grabs you from behind and sticks his hand down your pants to jerk you off, while you are freaking out and saying, "Stop! Pervert!" He doesn't stop, but says something super romantic like, "Want to scream for help?"

In yaoi land, this means you are being tsundere. Everywhere else, this is rape.

[(Anonymous)]

You know what is problematic? People like you who don't understand what is the real world and what is a piece of fiction, and are unable not to project themselves on the characters, that's what's problematic. You don't like the established japanese trope (it doesn't just happen in yaoi, folks) of people being reluctant at first and then getting very into it? Okay. Me, I know it's one of their tropes and it doesn't really bother me. No, I don't think japanese porn tropes apply to real life, not in Japan and even less in the West, where the porn tropes are different. What is the problem then?

[(Anonymous)]

Fiction doesn't exist in a vaccum, anon. Real life influences fiction and to act like it doesn't is absolute bullshit. We can seprerate fiction from reality just fine, but you know what we can also do? We can also acknowledge that problematic elements from reality like rape culture, racism, sexism, etc also find their way into our media.

Pointing that out and examining it is not a bad thing. You can be a fan of something problematic while still acknowledging that it is problematic. If this doesn't makes sense to you then I apologize. I'm not too good at wording stuff. Hopefully someone can elaborate better than I did.

[(Anonymous)]

All that acknowledging talk sounds like fearmongering, "won't someone think of the children" and trying to take responsibility away from you for your actions. Also I've seen that when something gets called "problematic" (especially in exaggerated tones that do not take into account anything good about the work) by some people it always gets followed with an attempt to ban or prohibit or censor, and that is something I do not stand for.

[(Anonymous)]

That's irrelevant. The question remains, do you think this was rape? If you argue that it isn't, well we'll just have to disagree because I cannot see how this situation could be clearer.

If you do think it was rape, then you can go on to argue that it's fine for the work to romanticize this relationship founded on rape because it's only fiction. I will disagree and argue that depictions of such action in fiction matter, not least because so many of the readers are young and are now making arguments like, "The relationship was so romantic, what happened wasn't rape," or, "He raped him but it was okay because he liked it and they're in love". I just have to stroll through a forum or a YouTube video to find tons of comments like this. Not once does someone claim to acknowledge that the act was heinous but they enjoyed the work anyway purely as a fantasy. People in real life are actually defending the tropes as being normal, healthy, romantic, etc. That is what I call "having an effect".

[(Anonymous)]

I beg to differ, it's extremely relevant.

I think it's obvious by now that we disagree on many things.

>not least because so many of the readers are young

Ah yeah, "think of the children", called it. Why are young readers reading 18+ series anyway? It contains graphic scenes, it's a series for discerning adults.

>and are now making arguments like, "The relationship was so romantic, what happened wasn't rape," "He raped him but it was okay because he liked it and they're in love"

Actually I've never seen those specific arguments in the fandom, if anything I've seen arguments pretty much like mine. Some better worded and many worded for the worse, but still.

>Not once does someone claim to acknowledge that the act was heinous but they enjoyed the work anyway purely as a fantasy. People in real life are actually defending the tropes as being normal, healthy, romantic, etc. That is what I call "having an effect".

Or maybe they understand it's a different sex trope and they accept it as such, without forgetting that what works in a fantasy doesn't necessarily work in real life, as I do. But it looks like you can't differentiate the two and if I think that Junjou Romantica is a great love story, you automatically assume I think the real world is totally a porn anime so I'm totally going to forget common sense and my own culture and act like an anime porn character irl. Right.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you really that out of touch? The manga is posted on the Internet, for free. It's also hugely popular. A lot of yaoi fans are teenagers, some as young as 12-13. Oh yeah, I'm sure they all look at ratings and follow them to the letter.

Go to Mangafox, likely the most well-known manga site on the net. Take a peek at the forums. There abound those arguments you constantly deny exist.

[(Anonymous)]

And? 12-13 year olds browse 4chan too. That's also free and hugely popular too. But they're still the ones in the wrong for browsing a clearly-marked adult website (and thus deserving of bans), just like they're the ones in the wrong for reading that's marked (by Mangafox itself) "Caution to under-aged viewers: The series Junjou Romantica contain themes or scenes that may not be suitable for very young readers thus is blocked for their protection." The ratings are there for a reason.

I don't post on Mangafox, but looking at the forums right now I see normal fandom discussion threads and various squeeing and gushing over your favourite whatever which I still do myself even though I'm nearly 30. In fact, everything that's been said by the haters ITT has already been discussed to death in the fandom. The series has been going for more than 10 years now, you know, you aren't saying anything haters haven't already said and that fans haven't already refuted.

[(Anonymous)]

Assuring that all due warnings are in place, it's the parents' responsibility that their children do not view age-inappropriate material.

[(Anonymous)]

You can enjoy your porn however you want, as long as you can call a spade a spade. It's when you start saying, "Oh by the way it's not rape," that it's a problem.

[(Anonymous)]

That's because I don't see it as rape. You do? Fine, but don't push your views onto me.

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry, anon, but there's a thing called willing suspension of disbelief. It's a necessity for enjoying fiction, and involves accepting things that don't gel with reality as we know it, such as magic or aliens existing. However, some things are just off enough from reality that disbelief can no longer be willingly suspended. This is generally, but not always, a sign of bad writing. Some people just have a low tolerance for certain genres (my mom hates zombie movies and refuses to suspend her disbelief where they are concerned and thinks they're ridiculous.)

In this case, for many many people, forcibly having sex with someone, without their consent, and then having it not be considered rape completely shatters their suspension of disbelief and ruins the story for them. From then on the story, regardless of how well it is written, is tainted by this break in the reality, and nothing else quite feels 'right'.

You, clearly, are willing to suspend your disbelief. And then feel like vehemently arguing that other people's unwillingness to do so for something they find distasteful is wrong. Uh, good for you? I'm going to be over here thinking that that trope is kind of gross, and that romance would be much better served by a trope of enthusiastic consent. No suspension of disbelief needed here for love interests having enthusiastically consensual sex!

[(Anonymous)]

>And then feel like vehemently arguing that other people's unwillingness to do so for something they find distasteful is wrong.

Plese point out where have I said that? I've said many times that I disagree with you but that's pretty different from what you're saying now.

>And that romance would be much better served by a trope of enthusiastic consent. No suspension of disbelief needed here for love interests having enthusiastically consensual sex!

As if I don't thoroughly enjoy that in my fiction also. You sure love baselessly implying stuff about people you don't know, hmmm?

[(Anonymous)]

You're assuming that I'm assuming that you don't appreciate consensual sex. But I'm not! I'm just saying the consensual sex > nonconsensual sex. Straight up.

As for the other thing, why are you continuing to argue so constantly against other people's opinions if you don't think they're wrong? I know the other people here are arguing with you because they think you're wrong, but what stake do you have here if you don't think that they're not wrong for thinking that it was rape... when the only way to think it's not rape is to suspend your disbelief about how sex works in the real world for the sake of accepting the trope?

[(Anonymous)]

Well I don't see what's wrong with suspending your disbelief, for instance. I guess it's easier for people like me since the line between reality and fiction is very clear.

As for why I'm arguing - why do people ever argue in defense of things they like, especially when they see them accused of things they do not cause as some people in this very thread have done?