fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2483 ]

[ SECRET POST #2483 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2483 ⌋

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NAYART

...Have you ever actually seen a Romani caravan? They literally look like everyone else. There is no 'those damn brown people'. It's more 'those damn caravans' because, and I'll say it again, they look as European as everyone else. The skin tone might be more olive than peaches and cream but there's no discernible Other-ness.

It's really not racism. They came from the same genetic pool as most of the people around them. It's discrimination, which is (still bad but) not the same.

...and not entirely unfounded. Yes, there are some who want to live differently and no, they shouldn't be penalized for where they came from. But yeah, the old ways are still very much in full swing in some groups and that's something that people should be wary of.

the vast majority of roma people descend from the middle east/india; it doesn't matter how dark their skin is, they have a relatively specific racial background and discriminating against them as a demographic is consequently racist.

They descend from the middle east alright... thousands of years ago. But they're physically indistinguishable from European population and if you met a regular, hard working, tax paying, tuxedo-wearing Romani at work, it wouldn't even cross your mind that they're Romani, much less discriminate against them for that.

Sorry, no. At least in Finland you can tell the Romani a mile away. They're far darker than "native" Finns. The romani even used to be called "mustalaiset" ("darklings", "blacklings"). (The word is currently considered a slur by most.)
That said, there's quite a gradient of Europeans. I have no idea what your "average European" even looks like.

According to someone up inthe thread, even Eastern Europeans are easy to tell from amile away in Nordic countries, so I'm not all that surprised, but I wouldn't consider that racism.

anon above you
Me neither. I was responding to frustratingly condensending person upthread claiming there couldn't be racism against the Romani because, "Have you even seen a Romani caravan? They look like everybody else" etc.

Maybe they do in their country? They certainly do in mine.

That's possible. But in any case s/he claims to speak for all of Europe
"...,they look as European as everyone else. The skin tone might be more olive than peaches and cream but there's no discernible Other-ness."
which is just silly and makes no sense.

So did people arguing with them.

i have to disagree that their racial background has changed to the point where they are indistinguishable from the general european populace, nation depending. some examples:

roma people living in slovakia:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CV4gGi_pewk/TVh_3oDp_nI/AAAAAAAAAXs/GWeb1jzFaOA/s1600/Slovak%2BRoma%2BCommunities.jpg
http://www.positivedeviance.org/images/October%202012/WEB_Roma_SINGHAL_01.jpg

in ukraine:
http://mibridgemi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_8009.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Romani_people_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg/747px-Romani_people_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg

in france:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2010-09/15/13495361_11n.jpg

general populations from slovakia, ukraine and france respectively:
http://www.bodhipath.org/fileadmin/img/centers/kosice.jpg
http://www.cam111.com/uploadfile/newsphoto/2011/0824/6792440173.jpg
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1900-6/photos/1366565773-french-people-protest-against-gay-marriage-in-paris_1980026.jpg

you can do this with nearly any country labeled european. the fact of the matter is that romanies are typically darker-skinned than most european populaces, due to their middle eastern and indian backgrounds. that hasn't changed just because they are nomadic. they tend to have similar appearances ethnically/racially because they largely come from the same place, so no matter where they've ended up - italy, germany, france, what have you - they maintain a distinct identity outside of the general "native" population of whatever country they are in. even if you want to argue that the cause isn't racism, which for some it is not - you have to consider the fact that the romani people belong to their own ethnic group, and discriminating against them by association or due to their ethnic identity is fucked up.

I would've written that post if I had any way with words at all. So +1 to you, I'm 100% with you.

You don't need to give me photos you found by googling on the internet. I've lived around Romanis my whole life and I'm speaking from real life experience. Romanis, in general, may not be blond haired and blue eyed, but they don't stand out at first sight when they're not dressed in traditional clothes (or at least those in my hometown don't).

i have experience with roma people as well but i don't just have photos of them lying around my place. google or not the photos i provided put it into perspective for anybody reading the thread - roma people don't generally just "blend in" with the native population of their country of residence. most folks with knowledge of romanies can take one look at a roma person and determine that they are, in fact, roma.

call it racism, call it ethnic discrimination - it's not right, no matter what many of the roma people have done/currently do. no roma person should be spat at on the street or threatened with violence by association. that kind of shit rings pretty familiar when you look at racial and ethnic conflicts in the past.

i seriously doubt you've ever dealt with any romani since you are american and you think roma is interchangeable with romani.

roma and romani being interchangeable is a more recent thing but it's not incorrect. i've clearly said that they are interchangeable and that roma also refers to a subgroup of romanies. i know the difference.

there are roma people in the united states, in case you weren't aware. it might hurt being called out on your racial and ethnic hatred but recall that europe is not perfect and has always had problems with racism. trying to turn this into a discussion about the united states won't erase european faults. the thread is primarily about european discrimination of roma people.

DA but an anon from upthread.

I don't think anyone is disputing that there is discrimination and several people (including myself) have even said that there is discrimination. What many of us are trying to tell you is that not all discrimination is racism and this is a case of discrimination, not racism. It doesn't matter if Romani are a separate race or even if they stand out from other ethnicities where they live because the prejudice against them is NOT based on their race or appearance. It is a reaction to their culture.

You are also trivialising real racism by willfully confusing discrimination with it.

And I can't speak for anyone else about this part, but it DOES rankle that an American is telling several Europeans about Romani in Europe. We live here. We live alongside the Romani. There may be Romani in America and they may even accept being called Roma but they are not the same people many of us are talking about. Roma IS a slur to most Romani here. They DO have a specific culture and lifestyle that preys on all other people. For you to come in here and try to tell me any different is laughable. It's offensive to me (and I know for many other Europeans but I am only speaking about myself here) when America or Americans try to tell non Americans about their culture or their country. It mostly stems from your government pretending to be the world's police, but there are enough individuals like you on the internet who think they know better than the people who are actually living with the stuff they're talking about. It's offensive, condescending, dismissive, ignorant and egotistical.

Speaking as an European also living alongside Romani people, the treatment and attitudes they face sure looks like racism (and discrimination, yes, but racism as well) to me. You to claim that all the European Romani have a specific culture and lifestyle that preys on other people. That is fucking offensive to me as an European. Offensive, condenscending, dismissive, ignorant and egotistical. And yes, racist.

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-21 23:51 (UTC) - Expand

I just told you that I've lived around ROmanis my whole life and I can'tt ell them apart. What's more, my whole family has a darker carnation that Romanis in my hometown.

I should have added that I wasn't the anon you were speaking with. I agree with you that no Romani should be discriminated against just for being a ROmani. I just wanted to point out that it's hard to discriminate a Romani, because unless you see them beggin at the corner of the street dressed in their traditional clothes, you have no idea that this person you're speaking with is a Romani. And sadly, because over 50% of Romanis in my country don't attend schools and girls are often illiterate, they will never stop being these traditionally-dressed beggars.

most people can tell them apart though, at least in my experience.

let's say you don't want to refer to it as racial discrimination. you see them dressed in their traditional clothes, as you say, and immediately paint them all as beggars. unfortunately a lot of that is true but my point is that their ethnic identity, expressed through their clothes, language, racial similarities, et cetera, make them distinctly romani. if you take away these things then you've stripped much of their ethnic identity. so you are basically saying that they can only be accepted, rather than hated and mistreated, if they are assimilated. that's definitely ethnic discrimination, even if you don't care to point out the racist undertones of it.

This I agree, but the same can be said about any white group, especially Southern and Eastern Europeans, which is why I disagree with it being called racism, because then you get to the point where we have dozens of "races" in Europe and the term looses all meaning. I also dislike how people always want to call racism, as if ethnic discrimination was somehow less bad.

Are you Upthread Anon? Why is it so hard for you to understand that all Europeans don't look the same? It's fine with me if you can't tell the Romani apart from your people, but that certainly isn't true in all parts of Europe or the rest of the world.

Tell me, do the Roma still blame their rep for being thieving bastards and cattle buggerers on those filthy, filthy half-caste didacoys? Because that is what they always used to do. No, not us poor victims of racism, they'd cry, but it was those half breeds who are criminals, their half breed blood is the worst qualities of traveler and settled man alike. Yeah, that was the explanation they liked to give. So, unless the gypsies have cleaned up their act on blaming their rep on half-breeds and half-castes (and perhaps actually cleaned up their rep in general by not being thieving bastards) they deserve to be treated like the criminal scum they are.

you haven't been banned yet?? remarkable

AYART

They don't descend from the Middle East or India. They're called Romani because the bulk of the population that you're talking about come from Romania which is why your insistence on calling them "Roma" is a slur. Seriously.

The people in Egypt are called Christians and they've been where they are for centuries.

Also, you really don't know the definition for "racism". It's not a matter of color - I merely emphasized that to point out that they look like everyone else because they are like everyone else.

Look, rather than weighing on with ill-informed opinions and refusing to listen to anyone who knows information that you lack, why don't you focus on something that you intend to affect? Because, other than shaming Europe in general for not living up to your conceptions of it, you don't seem to want to do anything to help this population - one that you, admittedly, seem to have conflated with several others. Go make a positive difference in your own community. And read some damn history books.

roma isn't a slur. it's never been a slur. the romanies i have had discussions with never once mentioned roma being a slur. some romanies may not prefer the term, which i respect, but i have no source indicating that roma is a slur and unless you can provide one, i will not take your word for it.

anyway, they did descend mostly from india, from what most scholars have deduced by language patterns. many of them immigrated to romania but their origins lie in india. roma as a term largely refers to romani people who hail from romania but as a whole the romanies are most likely to have come from the middle east and south asia. i don't know where you are getting your information but it is grossly incorrect and i suggest you do some more research before attempting to paint me wrong.

you continue to state that romanies look like everybody else but they don't and i've proven that and everybody including myself disagrees with you. might i remind you that insisting you are right doesn't make you so. there is nothing left of this matter to discuss because i refuse to go back and forth with what amounts to "you're wrong" "no you are." you've provided absolutely no sources or evidence of any kind whereas i have so there's that.

europe does live up to my "conceptions" though. i understand it as a region largely wracked by racial and ethnic issues, evident in its treatment of muslims and romanies, among other ethnic/racial groups. every part of the world has its fair share of issues; i am not the one trying to cover those up. it's okay to acknowledge problems in your area, it doesn't necessarily fault you. acknowledging them is the first part of fixing them and is absolutely vital to doing so. the romani people deserve better, no matter what tendencies they have.

also i'm not sure where you're getting the idea that i don't want to help european populations, or that i am not helping my own, as i a definitely am going these things and i've said nothing to indicate otherwise whatsoever. you're presuming on no basis or evidence.

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