[ SECRET POST #2512 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2512 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #359.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, I never really understood the Rose-as-Mary-Sue argument, either.

The thing I didn't appreciate was turning "adventures in time and space" into Low Space Opera by way of Eastenders. Which is why I much preferred Donna and the Doctor, until I heard about all the politics behind the scenes, which ruined it for me. But the writing was much better during that run, than it was with the whole melodrama/space opera thing the reboot has tended to go overboard with.

[fauxkaren]

If someone refers to any character as a Mary Sue, I automatically disregard anything they might have to say.

And... I think you are grossly over exaggerating the romance angle. Sure, there was some, obviously. But it didn't mean that the show stopped being about adventures in space and time.

[(Anonymous)]

Not at first, but it's definitely became much more of a focus, as the series went on. Moffat writes what he knows, and what he knows is slapstick dramedy. Which is fine, as far as that goes, but then it gets too big for him, and gets out of hand. Thus, the frantic pacing and whiplash plotting that passes for "epic" in Moffat's understanding. Neither of which are my thing, personally.

Sorry, fauxkaren. I know you're defending the show you love. :-) I'm just disappointed, because I know it can be so much better than it is.

[fauxkaren]

Well, I too am disappointed in Moffat's handling of the show. I think he routinely bites off more than he can chew and his climaxes never live up to the hype he builds. And I am 500% done with time loops.

But I think that while Moffat's romances aren't great (Doctor/River makes me want to fling myself off a cliff), they're also towards the bottom of the list of his issues as a writer.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I agree, the space opera stuff is the least of Moffat's problems. I get plot whiplash from reading the synopses, I don't even bother watching anymore. He keeps referring to the 50th as "epic" which just makes me feel ill.

Taking the reboot as a whole, from Nine forwards, I think they definitely over-humanized the Doctor in a way that did a disservice to the show's roots, IMO. The whole companions-as-love-interest thing certainly didn't begin with Moffat. But I, for one, will be quite happy if it ends with Moffat.

[(Anonymous)]

DA, I just rewatched the show without nostalgia goggles and I have to say...the romance is unbearable at time. I actually finally understood what Queen Victoria was on about in Tooth & Claw with the inappropriate giggling.

You're clearly a 10 and Rose shipper and that fine. The first time around I didn't ship them but didn't mind the romance either because I was so in love with the show. Stepping back and looking at it objectively though? There was a lot of romance, most of Martha's run actually focused on Rose instead of Martha and most of Donna's run was focused on 1) her consoling 10 that Rose was gone and 2) how Rose was coming back. She did not leave the show for a single second while RTD was writing and everything she did was glorified as the Most Perfect Thing Ever (even if she faces some consequences at first, it's later smoothed over and turned into a fairytale ending).

It's very grating, and I say this as someone who used to love Rose unconditionally.

Moral of the story? Don't wait so long to rewatch the show that you can have an objective view of it.

[fauxkaren]

Maybe you should rewatch without the hater goggles.

Just a thought.

You seem to be seeing what you want to see in the show, as opposed to what is actually there.

[(Anonymous)]

You're taking this really personally. I agree with them, and I'm even a Ten/Rose shipper. Objectively, it detracted a little from the overall storyline. That doesn't mean it wasn't fun from a shipper's perspective, but I could easily see how a newcomer/more casual fan/non-shipper fan would gag over the amount of it.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Not everyone watches the series with Rose/Ten goggles on. Rose is a great character but all the shippy stuff overshadowed everything else for me, and I'm sure others felt the same way. Labeling everyone who doesn't ship it "haters" doesn't help your argument sound more rational.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yeah, Tooth and Claw was nearly unbearable. I was totally in sympathy with Queen Victoria. One of the prime examples of why I like Nine/Rose better than Ten/Rose.

[tree_and_leaf]

This. I loved Rose, and her relationship with the Doctor in the first season (I didn't ship it myself, but I could see why people did, and I do think Piper and Eccleston had better chemistry than she did with Tennant). I like David Tennant, he's a fine actor, but Ten was such a dickhead at times, and he and Rose seemed to bring out the worst in each other.

He was great with Donna, though, and I say that as someone who fully expected to hate her.

[(Anonymous)]

Ten was such a dickhead at times, and he and Rose seemed to bring out the worst in each other

Can you give examples how they seemed to bring out the worst in each other? Yeah, Tooth and Claw was pretty much them in their honeymoon phrase and they were obviously focused on each other (understandable) but other than that?

[(Anonymous)]

and most of Donna's run was focused on 1) her consoling 10 that Rose was gone and 2) how Rose was coming back.

Go on butt-hurt anon, watch the series again and count the scenes where Donna was consoling 10 about Rose. And while you're at it, why don't you count the minutes and how much it was out of the show's whole screen time. Go on, take a look! I want to know what you'll find.

The same goes for Martha. How many scenes in the end were there about Rose? Because I will laugh at your face if you seriously say that most of Martha's run was focused on Rose. Like... seriously.

Your issues with Rose are showing and they are obviously coloring your perception.

[(Anonymous)]

"If someone refers to any character as a Mary Sue, I automatically disregard anything they might have to say."


I only take Mary Sue claims seriously (and even then I take it as an opinion thing) when they extensively back up their arguments and have good reasons. If they can prove that the character

* Black holes /warps the world to make things about them
* Overshadow others constantly
* Warp characterization of other characters
* is not negatively effected by their flaws

then I'll consider that yeah, that character could be a Mary Sue.

But it's not often I hear good reasons and justifications for characters that aren't blatant Sues .

[philstar22]

What politics? I haven't heard anything. Donna has always been my favorite companion. And I agree that the writing was better that run, partly because I think Ten worked better with someone who questioned him and yelled at him when he needed it.

[(Anonymous)]

Not character-wise, but rumours (posted here, anon, so prolly take with a huge block of salt) have indicated David Tennant didn't like Freema Agyeman, so much so, he insisted they kick her to the curb, and we got Catherine Tate as a result. Which, I liked Donna, her time in the TARDIS really did feel the closest the reboot has gotten to Classic!Who IMO, but now that I know where it came from/what it was a result of, eh, I feel kind of sketch for enjoying it, now.

[philstar22]

Wow. I've never heard that. And Google-fu doesn't seem to be giving me any links. That's kind of creepy if he did that.

I still like his chemistry with Catherine best, though. And Donna was my favorite even just with Runaway Bride before Martha came on the scene. And Martha did come back a bunch during Series 4.

[(Anonymous)]

It was, if my crap memory serves me correctly, posted in the comments section of a secret that said OP wished that how they (Martha, Ten, Jack) all looked so happy and besties in the PR shots was really how it had been, behind the scenes, even though they knew it wasn't. Another commenter in the thread mentioned the rumour I recounted above, when I asked for details. Then somebody linked to Eccleston's interview, and yeah. Sounds like the whole thing has been sketch from the word go. :-P

[philstar22]

Do you have the link to the Eccleston interview by chance?

[(Anonymous)]

DA I did read the Eccleston interview from that link as well, I'd agree with what the above anon said, sorry I didn't keep a link.

I think Freema A just didn't work out. The public didn't take to her at all. I think it was the way the character was written, although I didn't think she was a very good actress and I remember lots of jokes online about her being wooden, but I don't think any of them have been the best actresses, except maybe Alex Kingston. Anyhow they got rid of her fast enough.

[philstar22]

Didn't work out? Really? She came back plenty in series 4. And while some didn't like her, she also had plenty of fans.

Personally, I liked her just fine, and I don't think she was any more wooden than anyone else. Alex is really good and so was Catherine, but they also had much more experience. And I don't see any problems with the way she was written. I thought the idea of a companion who started out loving the Doctor but ended up finding herself and moving on and walking away on her own was pretty cool.

[(Anonymous)]

Freema Agyeman asked to leave the show because she had a chance to be in a period BBC miniseries and she'd always wanted to be in one. David Tennant did lobby for Catherine Tate as her replacement because they had great chemistry and like working together, but that was only after they'd begun looking for the next companion. I don't have a source link but if you watch the Doctor Who Confidentials and interviews from that time you'll hear it from Freema and everyone says just about the same thing.