[ SECRET POST #2512 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2512 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #359.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fauxkaren]

What's so wrong with a creator loving their character?

That said, it's hilarious to me when people claim that Rose is a self-insert character for RTD.

[fauxkaren]

It's also amusing to me when people complain about Rose "keep coming back" because like. Donna was just a one-off who came back for her own series and then again she returned to the show in End of Time. And Martha came back twice on Doctor Who in series 4 after she'd left the Tardis. AND she also had a three episode arc on Torchwood. (and had the cameo in End of Time)

Rose left in series 2. Came back at the end of series 4 (+cameo in EoT). And now is coming back for the 50th.

Jack GOT HIS OWN SHOW and then after that returned to the mothership for two appearances and also the EoT cameo.

But people seem to really harp on Rose's returns while ignoring every one else.

[philstar22]

I think for some of us the issue is less "she kept coming back" and more "she was the focus even when it wasn't her turn". Martha's season was a whole lot about her. Donna's season was a lot about Rose returning even before she came back (and also about Martha coming back again).

That being said, that says nothing about Rose herself or her character. I just think she was the first companion RTD wrote, and she had special meaning for him. Rose is awesome, its just that some of the stuff around her wasn't always so much.

And I actually do think Jack was almost as special to him. Donna, not so much. Yes, she was a one-off who came back, but half her episodes included another companion and there were random put downs that made no sense (Jack not hugging her for example). That was less about her not being Rose, though, and more about the New Who bias against older companions. Which is just as much Moffatt's issue, if not more so.

[sarillia]

I agree with this. I like Rose but I love all the companions and I wish she hadn't overshadowed some of the others as much as she did.

[fauxkaren]

Different strokes for different folks, but I liked that Rose wasn't forgotten the second she left the screen. And idk. Given her relationship with Ten, it made sense to me that his story in series 3 would be about mourning Rose.

And tbh, the fact that the Doctor WAS hung up on Rose allowed for Martha's story to be a really cool and empowering story about finding worth in herself instead of looking for validation from an outside source (in this case, the Doctor's approval).

ETA: and with Donna, well, I don't think it was built into the story that Rose overshadowed her. Rose made some very brief cameo appearances in series 4 leading up to her return and it wasn't made a huge deal of on the show. FANDOM might have been different. But it wasn't the writing.

[philstar22]

I guess maybe it comes down to whether you bought the Doctor/Rose thing. I mostly wanted Rose being awesome without the romance angle, and I found it hard to believe that a 900 year old Doctor was really mooning over one human companion in a way he hadn't for any other. It felt out of character to me personally because what the Doctor does is hang around with a companion for a while and then when that relationship ends he moves on fairly quickly.

And I guess I like to enjoy the companions for who they are while they are on. That being said, I did like Martha's storyline about loving the Doctor and realizing he'd never love her back and moving on. I found it much more annoying in Series 4 when it felt like RTD just didn't really want to focus on Donna even if he had made her the companion for the series.

[sarillia]

And tbh, the fact that the Doctor WAS hung up on Rose allowed for Martha's story to be a really cool and empowering story about finding worth in herself instead of looking for validation from an outside source (in this case, the Doctor's approval).

This is an interesting point.

[(Anonymous)]

And tbh, the fact that the Doctor WAS hung up on Rose allowed for Martha's story to be a really cool and empowering story about finding worth in herself instead of looking for validation from an outside source (in this case, the Doctor's approval).

Another person of color saddled with a storyline that involved them being made to feel inferior to a white person. So cool.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I eyerolled at those moments because I found Rose's returns more annoying than anyone else's. It wasn't just about frequency or number of returns, it's that Rose is always worshipped as the One True Companion and that got old really fast.

[(Anonymous)]

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER

I felt it erased all the brilliant companions that came before her; kinda saying they weren't as special. They are ALL special to the Doctor and he loves them all (maybe not Adric. Nobody likes Adric).

If we're including spin off companions, the Doctor had a much closer relationship with Fitz then he did with Rose.

[(Anonymous)]

Or with Jamie. Or Jo. Or Romana.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed wholeheartedly. It was beyond annoying how the show and fans teeated her as if she was the only companion that mattered. He loves them all, damn it.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, I never really understood the Rose-as-Mary-Sue argument, either.

The thing I didn't appreciate was turning "adventures in time and space" into Low Space Opera by way of Eastenders. Which is why I much preferred Donna and the Doctor, until I heard about all the politics behind the scenes, which ruined it for me. But the writing was much better during that run, than it was with the whole melodrama/space opera thing the reboot has tended to go overboard with.

[fauxkaren]

If someone refers to any character as a Mary Sue, I automatically disregard anything they might have to say.

And... I think you are grossly over exaggerating the romance angle. Sure, there was some, obviously. But it didn't mean that the show stopped being about adventures in space and time.

[(Anonymous)]

Not at first, but it's definitely became much more of a focus, as the series went on. Moffat writes what he knows, and what he knows is slapstick dramedy. Which is fine, as far as that goes, but then it gets too big for him, and gets out of hand. Thus, the frantic pacing and whiplash plotting that passes for "epic" in Moffat's understanding. Neither of which are my thing, personally.

Sorry, fauxkaren. I know you're defending the show you love. :-) I'm just disappointed, because I know it can be so much better than it is.

[fauxkaren]

Well, I too am disappointed in Moffat's handling of the show. I think he routinely bites off more than he can chew and his climaxes never live up to the hype he builds. And I am 500% done with time loops.

But I think that while Moffat's romances aren't great (Doctor/River makes me want to fling myself off a cliff), they're also towards the bottom of the list of his issues as a writer.

[(Anonymous)]

DA, I just rewatched the show without nostalgia goggles and I have to say...the romance is unbearable at time. I actually finally understood what Queen Victoria was on about in Tooth & Claw with the inappropriate giggling.

You're clearly a 10 and Rose shipper and that fine. The first time around I didn't ship them but didn't mind the romance either because I was so in love with the show. Stepping back and looking at it objectively though? There was a lot of romance, most of Martha's run actually focused on Rose instead of Martha and most of Donna's run was focused on 1) her consoling 10 that Rose was gone and 2) how Rose was coming back. She did not leave the show for a single second while RTD was writing and everything she did was glorified as the Most Perfect Thing Ever (even if she faces some consequences at first, it's later smoothed over and turned into a fairytale ending).

It's very grating, and I say this as someone who used to love Rose unconditionally.

Moral of the story? Don't wait so long to rewatch the show that you can have an objective view of it.

[fauxkaren]

Maybe you should rewatch without the hater goggles.

Just a thought.

You seem to be seeing what you want to see in the show, as opposed to what is actually there.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yeah, Tooth and Claw was nearly unbearable. I was totally in sympathy with Queen Victoria. One of the prime examples of why I like Nine/Rose better than Ten/Rose.

[(Anonymous)]

and most of Donna's run was focused on 1) her consoling 10 that Rose was gone and 2) how Rose was coming back.

Go on butt-hurt anon, watch the series again and count the scenes where Donna was consoling 10 about Rose. And while you're at it, why don't you count the minutes and how much it was out of the show's whole screen time. Go on, take a look! I want to know what you'll find.

The same goes for Martha. How many scenes in the end were there about Rose? Because I will laugh at your face if you seriously say that most of Martha's run was focused on Rose. Like... seriously.

Your issues with Rose are showing and they are obviously coloring your perception.

[(Anonymous)]

"If someone refers to any character as a Mary Sue, I automatically disregard anything they might have to say."


I only take Mary Sue claims seriously (and even then I take it as an opinion thing) when they extensively back up their arguments and have good reasons. If they can prove that the character

* Black holes /warps the world to make things about them
* Overshadow others constantly
* Warp characterization of other characters
* is not negatively effected by their flaws

then I'll consider that yeah, that character could be a Mary Sue.

But it's not often I hear good reasons and justifications for characters that aren't blatant Sues .

[philstar22]

What politics? I haven't heard anything. Donna has always been my favorite companion. And I agree that the writing was better that run, partly because I think Ten worked better with someone who questioned him and yelled at him when he needed it.

[(Anonymous)]

Not character-wise, but rumours (posted here, anon, so prolly take with a huge block of salt) have indicated David Tennant didn't like Freema Agyeman, so much so, he insisted they kick her to the curb, and we got Catherine Tate as a result. Which, I liked Donna, her time in the TARDIS really did feel the closest the reboot has gotten to Classic!Who IMO, but now that I know where it came from/what it was a result of, eh, I feel kind of sketch for enjoying it, now.

[philstar22]

Wow. I've never heard that. And Google-fu doesn't seem to be giving me any links. That's kind of creepy if he did that.

I still like his chemistry with Catherine best, though. And Donna was my favorite even just with Runaway Bride before Martha came on the scene. And Martha did come back a bunch during Series 4.

[(Anonymous)]

Freema Agyeman asked to leave the show because she had a chance to be in a period BBC miniseries and she'd always wanted to be in one. David Tennant did lobby for Catherine Tate as her replacement because they had great chemistry and like working together, but that was only after they'd begun looking for the next companion. I don't have a source link but if you watch the Doctor Who Confidentials and interviews from that time you'll hear it from Freema and everyone says just about the same thing.