[ SECRET POST #2527 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2527 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 042 secrets from Secret Submission Post #361.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[crunchysunrises]

Yes. But then, I believe that the law exists for a reason, no one should be held over a fifteen story drop until they squeal, and that citizens have no right to summarily stomp all over the rights of others, citizens or not.

But then, I'm also capable of defending my position with more than "you're stupid for not agreeing with me!" So, you know, I can see where we might have a strong difference of opinion.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

So in your mind, with great power comes the responsibility to stay home and watch alien invasions demolish half the Eastern Seaboard on CNN, because nobody's paying you to do anything about it?

[crunchysunrises]

Did I say that in any of my previous statements? No.

[(Anonymous)]

It's the logical conclusion of your previous statements. You have been saying that you think it's appropriate or reasonable for citizens to blame or pursue legal action against superheroes who "rampage" through the streets trying to stop monsters and aliens from destroying cities. That rather directly implies that you think it would be better for said superheroes not to do that. So if now you're saying that you don't think they should just sit on their hands and watch as major population centers are destroyed, what DO you think superheroes in these situations should do?

[crunchysunrises]

I have difficulty believing that in worlds where aliens, mutants, monsters or whatever have always existed (or have come out as existing any time ago) that the military, government law enforcement agencies, and whatever specialized task forces such worlds would have wouldn't have ways of dealing with those threats without the intervention of masked vigilantes.

I'm not against good Samaritans but I am against people who take matters into their own hands because they can't be bothered to be sensible and call ahead to any of the very many agencies with offices in New York - including, surprisingly, the state, county, and city LEOs - and tell someone on the scene, "Hey, deranged brainwashed scientists have broken into my private property and are setting up a doomsday device on the roof of my new skyscraper. If you could just send someone up to stop them and maybe clonk them on the heads?"

[(Anonymous)]

If we're taking the MCU as an example, it's not the case that government agencies have known about all these things for very long; SHIELD only found out about Asgardians a couple of years prior to The Avengers, and while they'd known about the Hulk for longer than that, no effective means of combating either had been developed. Think about the amount of havoc that Loki was able to create in Germany the last time they'd encountered him - sending a bunch of human cops or security guards up to that rooftop might have just gotten a lot of innocent first-responders killed (or mind-controlled) for no good reason if Loki was up there, as they assumed he was.

[crunchysunrises]

SHIELD only found out about Asgardians a couple of years prior to The Avengers, and while they'd known about the Hulk for longer than that
That seems like more than enough time, given how much government & military agencies can get done when they're motivated. Plus, with all the weird research going on in that universe and the mutants running around (That is the 'verse that shares space with the mutants, right?), I think they'd have something in mind already or something that they can re-purpose.

if Loki was up there, as they assumed he was
But they really don't have a reason to think he's up there. He's just left the flying carrier and simple maths will tell them about how long it'll take for him to get there. There's a window of time in there where the plot grinds to a screeching halt so that everyone can relocate from the helicarrier to NYC. There's certainly enough time for first responders (or even Tony's tower security) to help themselves to the cube and its machine, especially since the thing isn't even turned on until Loki shows up to do it personally.

[(Anonymous)]

That seems like more than enough time, given how much government & military agencies can get done when they're motivated.

And yet, they still haven't come up with a reliable way to subdue the Hulk, despite being profoundly motivated. The best they were able to manage was that cage. As far as the Asgardians, most of their abilities look like magic as far as the people of Earth are concerned, and a couple of years isn't that long in research time. Otherwise, we'd have cured cancer by now.

That is the 'verse that shares space with the mutants, right?

They don't have the movie rights to the X-Men characters, and in Agents of SHIELD (which explicitly takes place in the MCU), they've stated that there have been no confirmed reports of telekinesis on file, so it's looking like X-Men-style mutants don't exist in this 'verse.

But they really don't have a reason to think he's up there.

They'd know from Thor that Loki is a sorcerer. They have no reason to assume that he's limited to the travel speeds that humans are capable of. Given what they've seen him do (appearing in the SHIELD facility at the beginning of the movie, his illusory doubles and appearing to teleport), they would be foolish to assume he couldn't just pop himself right to Manhattan if he wanted to.

[crunchysunrises]

It took ten years (at least, within the U.S. and counting everything between Project Mercury and the Apollo program) to put a man on the moon. I suspect that the threat of alien invasion would rank at least as highly as space exploration within the research community.

And, considering the huge variety of mutations within the X-Men verse, the lack of telekinesis isn't an evidence of a lack of mutants, X-Men style or otherwise.

Loki has to walk the roads between world like everyone else in the first Thor movie. He says as much when he's talking about the hidden pathways between worlds. He may look like he teleports from place to place but Thor would know that he can't and doesn't actually teleport anywhere. If Thor knows it, there's no reason he'd keep Loki having X amount of unavoidable travel time from the rest of the Avengers since, as has been pointed out repeatedly, they're in the middle of trying to thwart his brother's alien invasion.

So nope, it's not unreasonable to assume that he can't pop himself into Manhattan.

[(Anonymous)]

The moon isn't dodging our rockets, or trying to attack us, and it behaves according to principles we understand and can predict quite well. That's not exactly the same as trying to subdue radioactive rage-monsters or alien gods. And if your conclusion is, "the heroes of the movie were wrong because the military should have had capabilities beyond what they are canonically described as having," I don't see how effectively this conversation is going to proceed because you're rejecting the clearly-established parameters of the setting.

[diet_poison]

government law enforcement agencies

You mean like...SHIELD?

Or do you really believe that cops alone can stop supervillains?

Also, you seem to have an alarming "just trust the benevolent government, everyone!" vibe in your comments. I'd rather trust the people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they use their power for good, but also use it to avoid being directly reliant on the government even when they work for them, and who have the power to stand up to super-powered villains, than cops who are, in comparison, incompetent and corrupt.

[crunchysunrises]

You mean like...SHIELD?
My understanding is that SHIELD isn't attached to any given government or governments. It's presented as a secret organization that dresses itself in suits, sometimes works security, and seems to pull a lot of strings for an even more shadowy "council."

you seem to have an alarming "just trust the benevolent government, everyone!"
I certainly don't trust the government implicitly. But I trust mob rule or the "benevolent dictatorship" of the strong even less. The point of living in a society is that the strong don't get to set the rules by virtue of being strong. Democracy is an awful and corrupt mode of government but the alternatives are worse.

(Also, you seem to be forgetting that all of these "repeated demonstrations of using their powers for good" happened in secret. No one has any reason to believe any of those people aren't mass murderers or, in Tony's case, drunk/high and finally snapped. The only exception might be Capt. America but I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be fans/criminals/whatever running around in knockoff Capt. America suits in that world.)

EDIT: Also, while I didn't spot the corruption inherent to a pair of cops being overweight and not immediately obeying Capt America, I do think it's over the top to portray them as being completely incompetent. They're trained and RL has demonstrated that, even without knowing what's going on, first responders aren't that helpless and befuddled.

[diet_poison]

My understanding is that SHIELD isn't attached to any given government or governments.

Ok, then who do you think they are attached to, and who pays them?

Either way, they're clearly much more capable than cops and in many cases more capable than militaries.

But I trust mob rule or the "benevolent dictatorship" of the strong even less. The point of living in a society is that the strong don't get to set the rules by virtue of being strong.

That isn't how the Avengers work, though. Nothing they have done have indicated that they are interested in being dictators of any sort, so I'm just not sure how you are getting there.

And, of course, they are individuals, not coalitions of people scratching each others' backs. Bureaucratically, they could only do so much.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that all of these "repeated demonstrations of using their powers for good" happened in secret.

Yep, because Tony is so private and secretive...the public audience in Germany was private and secretive...the entire MO of the Avengers, with the whole giving-Cap-flashy-suits-to-put-hope-in-the-heart-of-the-people thing is super secretive

EDIT: Also, while I didn't spot the corruption inherent to a pair of cops being overweight and not immediately obeying Capt America, I do think it's over the top to portray them as being completely incompetent. They're trained and RL has demonstrated that, even without knowing what's going on, first responders aren't that helpless and befuddled.

how is this even relevant

and it's interesting, for all the competence you talk about cops as having (which they often do), you seem to think your average citizen is as smart as a box of rocks