[ SECRET POST #2541 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2541 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #363.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[pts]

Frozen was really good, but I would suggest that Lilo and Stitch and Mulan are also credible challengers for the title of "most feminist Disney film."

[(Anonymous)]

I really, deeply love Mulan, but she has so little positive interaction with other women and her story is a very Western model of "empowerment" in the Disney version and sort of strips away what was empowering about her in the original legend and cultural context, which I think was a big misstep. I mean, I'm not going to pull out my feminist yardstick, lol, but Mulan seems way less progressive to me as it ages.

[pts]

Mulan's biggest weakness by this rubric is certainly the title character's lack of meaningful interaction with other women. I do feel rather strongly, though, that in showing a positive outcome to her rejection of a gender performance that she didn't choose and which never suited her is a very big deal. This does, I admit, get into sticky internalized-misogyny territory, though. The film never does make it clear that traditionally-performed femininity is acceptable per se, and is simply not a good fit for Mulan, which could leave viewers to conclude that girly=lesser, but I think that's a particularly uncharitable reading of it.

I can't speak to whatever changes were made vis-a-vis the original poem.

[sarillia]

I actually didn't see Mulan as that masculine. She acted like a man to save her father, not because she wanted to. I have no idea what she would prefer if given a real choice. I don't see it so much as acceptance for breaking gender roles as a celebration of her accomplishments where going against her gender roles was incidental to what she did.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. I have trouble with some "feminist" criticism of it (scarequotes indicating difference in opinion from someone who is a feminist). While I agree meaningful interactions with other women are important, considering the story is Mulan at bootcamp and in the army, it doesn't make sense. And while at home, she only interacted with women, not including her father - grandmother and mother, namely.

And the argument of "feminine" = bad... well, she lived in a blatantly sexist society. The "feminine" was bad, in any interpretation. I don't think Mulan is less feminine because she fought and wore armor, nor that she felt accomplished as a warrior.

Would it have been nice if Mulan maybe had a female friend her own age who she interacted with? Sure. But for pacing purposes I don't think it's necessary, and Mulan wasn't rejecting femininity - she was rejecting sexism. I don't know. She didn't feel happy being dolled up and forced by tradition into marriage, which is fine. I understand the arguments to some extent, but I think Mulan is a great role model and was one of my favorite Disney movies growing up.

[(Anonymous)]

This.
I'm so fucking tired of female characters getting shit because "they aren't feminine" enough. Newsflash: Most women don't conform to a "overly-femenine" attitude either. You aren't being progressive by claiming that Mulan "is masculine".

[otakugal15]

See, I saw the Mulan in teh finale of the film to be the real Mulan. she's feminine, but she's not traditional feminine, but it never read to me as saying traditional feminine was bad, just that some mixing is ok.

But she wasn't masculine and she wasn't overly feminine, she was, dare I say it, average. Which is fine and I relate to her more that way than on the extremes.

[(Anonymous)]

As the risk of sounding like a "troll", and being an "average" gal (nor particularly feminine or masculine) I have to ask: what it's traditional femininity? Why do you (general you) people need to assign abstract labels to behaviours and personality traits that are all part of being a human? Both femininity and masculinity have changed over time, and are different for other cultures.
What I'm trying to say is: I'm tired of the whole bullshit of "you don't perform what we considerer femininity, therefore, you obviously have internalised misogyny".

[pts]

Yeah, I found myself wincing even as I typed my comment, because I knew everything I was saying just lead to a whole other mess of bad assumptions and oversimplifications.

Anyway, It wasn't my intention to cause offense, and I sincerely apologize if I did.

[(Anonymous)]

I never felt like Mulan was rejecting femininity, just that she needed a greater sense of purpose in her life than going to the match maker and having her future chosen for her. Protecting her father was that purpose.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I think Frozen edges them out because the driving force of the story is all about the relationship between two women. In Lilo and Stitch, the relationship between Lilo and Nani, while beautiful and well-done, isn't the vehicle which drives the plot, it's about Stitch learning to be a good person. In Mulan, her motivations are to do with male characters, specifically her father and perhaps Shang and the Emperor.

I adore both of those movies, and definitely think they're feminist, but... Frozen did the female representation and agency thing a little better.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Mulan is still my favorite Disney movie/character and I have to agree with you anon.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

I haven't seen Frozen yet (want to!) but I don't think it's not-feminist that Mulan acted for male characters. I mean, she fought through obstacles to save her father and win a sense of accomplishment for herself. I think it's kind of picking it apart to say her motivation should've been, say, her mother. Or that she can't fall in love or want to serve the Emperor. She says right in the movie that she did it more for just herself, she joined the army because... I forget the exact quote, but because she wanted to, and she was clearly doing the warrior thing for herself the moment after she didn't accept being kicked out of the army early on.

Anyway, I get the arguments about the importance of more than one female character moving the plot along, I totally do. I just have trouble with ranking Mulan as less feminist than Frozen (which I haven't seen) because her motivations for being awesome aren't good enough.

[lynx]

^This.