fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2572 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2572 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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02. http://i.imgur.com/LZFAavB.jpg?2
[link for sort of porny]

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09. [nf]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

11. [SPOILERS for sherlock series 3]

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12. [SPOILERS for Darwin Carmichael is Going to Hell]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

13. [SPOILERS for Attack on Titan]
[WARNING for rape]

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14. [SPOILERS for Revolution]
[WARNING for incest]

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15. [WARNING for pedophilia]

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16. [WARNING for rape]

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17. [WARNING for suicide]

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18. [WARNING for suicide]

[Whale Rider]

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19. [WARNING for self-mutilation]

[Dexter (books)]

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20. [WARNING for child abuse/rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #367.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

(Posted this yesterday but messed up some of the links. Trying again today.)

I recently discovered Ta-Nehisi Coates' writings for The Atlantic through F!S link hopping. I am fascinated by his recent posts about modern European history because they cover an era which I am not familiar with. Or, rather, the version I knew of is one of gloss and grand triumphs written by the victors. It is only recently that the grimmer realities are being studied and shared by academics. In particular, the Soviet-induced famine in The Ukraine after World War I, the systematic removal of non-Russians in Soviet leadership and the admiration the Nazis/Hitler had for the American slavery system.

An anon said yesterday saying that the Soviet famine was not restricted to The Ukraine and that things weren't that bad. Regardless of how bad things were, Soviets officers appeared to be completely ignorant of how agricultural societies worked. The mismanagement itself reminded me of other famines in communist countries - the Great Chinese Famine under Mao's leadership, the Khmer Rouge famine in Cambodia and the more recent famines in North Korea.

(The impact of Soviet nuclear testing at The Polygon was another "buried" Soviet activity I only found out about recently. It is hefty enough to be a comment by itself. Let's leave it for another time.)

What are your thoughts on this period of history, specifically, the attitudse of Soviet and Nazi leaders toward their fellow "white" people? How do you find Ta-Nehisi Coates' views and writings? What do you think of mainstream reports of this era?

I think how bad it was might depend on where you lived and what level of society you were at, simply because I've heard some truly horrible versions of it...and people like the other anon who said it wasn't that bad.

That is true. From all accounts it sounded like the rural farmers had it the worst. There was a lot of classism, collectivism and Russian nationalism/racism happening that I haven't figured out what to think of them yet.

Hello, I'm that anon from yesterday.
It's not that it wasn't bad. People got shot at the word of their neighbors that they're traitors, for example. My family history again - my grand-grandfather was saved from execution because he was away at the time, purely by chance.

Not to mention the huge loss of life during WW2... What I'm saying is that the life was hard and the government wasn't helping.

Collectivism is still practiced in Ukraine, where workers work together in agriculture, by the way. The equipment and earning are shared.

The most well-knows famine in USSR is this one. (At least I heard about it, which doesn't negate what you say about the other ones, of course.) Careful, this Wiki has graphic photos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921

And there's the Siege of Leningrad. So I could believe that Soviet government would allow the hunger and not care for its people. Saying that, USSR was very multicultural, which was a part of the official ideology, so I don't believe there was a genocide.

IA about it being different for everyone. In Russian college I had a teacher who said that the life in USSR was easy and most of the class went "WTF, no!".

Saying that, I find it all sad and am going to stop tracking this thread. Hope I contributed at least some to this discussion.

Hello to you too, nonny. Yes, there was very little political freedom, which I expected based on other governments with similar attitudes toward political dissent. Forced relocations I also expected, as well as Russification of non-Russian communities. Policies that had similar results as large-scale genocides was something I did not expect.

I don't know that about collectivism in Ukraine. I will have to look more into it. The 1921 Russian famine and photos are very upsetting and the warning is appreciated.

There is often a difference between official ideology and laws, and practices that were/are carried out IRL. I can see why there is a legitimate argument that genocide was not committed, that the famine was the result of a series of policies that stacked up in an ultimately unfortunate manner. The intent to destroy is a part of the definition of genocide, and this is the part that may never be proven for the actions that resulted in Holodomor.

Thank you for sharing your family history. It is painful for you and I very much appreciate your thoughts and experiences.

It's telling that people will know how Russia was the U.S.'s enemy for years because of the nuclear standoff and cold war, but they don't know how Stalin was responsible for 40 million people dying- killing 20 million people during his rule and 20 million soldiers and civilians during WW2.

Yes! This is exactly my frustration with the version of history schools in North America teach (minus specialized history courses in post-secondary schools) and that most laymen know. The Soviet regime was more than just US's political enemy and the Nazis were more than just the Jewish Holocaust. International effects of Soviet and Nazi activities are very well documented compared to intranational effects of Soviet and Nazi activities.

I made a comment yesterday comparing the Holomodor to colonial famines in the British Empire, and I mostly stand by that comparison - the Ukrainian famine was worse but I don't think the difference is as large as you might think. That said, if we're talking in general, then yes, the Soviet Union under Stalin was totally fucking awful (as was Mao's China). That's not really a question. They were inhumane societies.

Hannah Arendt argued that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were basically similar in terms of their form of government, both having fundamentally totalitarian regimes built around opposite ideologies in the same basic way, and acting in a lot of basically similar ways, and I agree with a lot of that argument, in general and in specific (and I would strongly recommend reading Origins of Totalitarianism if you're interested in this subject, along with Eichmann in Jerusalem, because they're both really interesting, insightful analyses of the subject). I do think that the mainstream tends not to really depict those things accurately - for a lot of reasons, really. Partly because we naturally tend not to want to think about these things, partly because as time passes the memory recedes, and partly because it gets caught up in other things - for instance I think a lot of times, talking about the Soviet Union gets caught up in your political beliefs one way or another, and if you're deeply committed to liberal capitalism all these things become just a stick to bash Communism with, and if you want to defend Marxist thought then you're going to make excuses. It's unfortunate.

Hello again! I spent quite a bit of time yesterday reading about the Irish Potato Famine in particular. The British government's policies and famine relief efforts were absolutely appalling. I can see why you made the comparison and found similarities between them.

Thank you for the resources. I will look into them later, especially Origins of Totalitarianism.

I agree current political beliefs and emotional attachments to idologies hinder unbiased discussions on this subject. Reading about Nazi actions in concentration camps and their recordkeeping practices yesterday brought up another reason as to why there are a lot of inaccuracies regarding this time period - the relevant records are lost, destroyed or sealed by current governments. It may require time for records to unseal and for the emotional pain to lessen more before mainstream depictions change to something more than just the one or two facets of what happened. It is unfortunate indeed.

[ SECRET POST #2572 ]

Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History

Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History

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Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History

Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History

Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History

Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates/Modern European History