fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2584 ]

[ SECRET POST #2584 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2584 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Danball Senki Wars]

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02.

[Harry Potter]

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03.

[Burn Notice]

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04.

[The Island of Doctor Moreau]

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05.

[Papers, Please]

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06.

[Star Trek: The Next Generation]

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07.

[Pretty Little Liars]

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08.

[KILL LA KILL]

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09.

[Labyrinth, The Hobbit]

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10.

[The Hobbit]

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11.

[The Hobbit]

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12.

[The Kiss of the Spider Woman]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 029 secrets from Secret Submission Post #369.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Uh, I am also a man. Just to clear that up.

And of course men and women are equally important, and men's concerns are valid. But they're not equally important in the feminist movement, because the feminist movement is not about men. Trying to make the feminist movement tackle men's issues seems kind of wrongheaded to me. Like, maybe we can let the women, who don't have as much privilege, focus on their own issues and not say, "pay attention to me too or I won't support you!!" Because we just do not have as many gender-related problems as women do. There is no pervasive anti-man sentiment in our society. We have the privilege here. Yeah, we have problems, but... trying to tell women feminists that they need to pay equal attention to men's problems seems to me akin to telling someone with a broken leg that they need to pay attention to your paper cut.

(sa) actually, that last analogy was probably pretty shitty, ignore it. I can't figure out how to say things...

It doesn't actually matter what you are. Sorry if I made it seem like it does.

And I'm not saying it has anything to do with "pay attention to me or I won't support you", but it has everything to do with recognizing that true equality means equalizing everything, not just the things that are unfair to women. It has to do with recognizing that the best way to make feminism stronger is including men into the fight, and to include men into it you have to, you know, actually include us. Care just a little about the things that need to change for us as well.

Well... I guess I just figure feminism already (indirectly) does enough for men without necessarily having to focus on our problems specifically. idk.

We really don't do as much as we could when it comes to lobbying for things that would enhance the social perception of, say, men in childrearing positions. For example, paternity leave or changes to laws that default custody of children to the mother.

Or, think about disparity in women and men's sexual health awareness over the past few decades. HPV causes cancer in men as well, but there was no vaccine subsidy for men until last year. It's a long rant, but things like that serve to enhance the perception that men are expendable as much as disparate policies for front line combat between male and female soldiers do.

Not focusing on issues like that is the reason MRAs have gained a foothold. And that is not okay with me. If that's going to be reversed, feminists need to understand right now that just hoping that feminism helps men indirectly is not enough.

Are you trying to imply men will only care about women's rights if feminists bribe them into it? Because that is what it sounds like. If men are so concerned about these issues they should address them. Not demand feminists do so or form thinly veiled feminist hate groups.

I think what he's trying to say is that if a movement claims to stand for equality, a lot of people - men and women alike - aren't going to believe them until they do fight for equality from all angles. That's why the backlash against ciswhiteupperclassfeminism and anti-trans-feminism exists even from within the movement.

And the prize for reading comprehension goes to: this anon! Take a bow, anon.

No. That's not what I've been saying for comments upon comments now, but if you haven't gotten my point I can only assume you're trolling.

And it's a weak troll, so 2/10.

Ah... okay, maybe I actually mostly agree with you? I kind of would already think of things like that as feminist issues. Like, if women don't have to be the ones taking care of the kids, it seems like it should stand to reason that it's just as fine for men to be taking care of kids. Two sides of the same coin.

They completely are feminist issues, but they tend not to get as much attention as other feminist issues, which is something that I believe needs to change (and something that is steadily changing as more men become vocal feminists and more women embrace the idea of fighting inequality on all fronts).

OP of this post replying to one of your comments more or less at random:

Thank you. You're not alone in being reasonable, rational, and mature in this topic, but you are consistently presenting as the kind of person I try to be. I think we understand each other.

In a sense, it's supposed to, but that's not always what happens. The goal of feminism is to eliminate patriarchy and misogyny, and ideally that will take away hypermasculinity in the process - but due to the nature of politics, sometimes it just ends up stoking the fire in a bad way, instead.

No. The goal of feminism is to achieve equality between the sexes.
eliminating patriarchy and misogyny is one of the means to achieve that goal. For example, when we have eliminated the patriarchy and misogyny we will still be blessed with our resident "It's not real rape if it happens to little boys instead of girls" misandrist. That is in part because the focus of a large-ish section of feminism in the past, (although the ideas have stuck around in a few branches of the movment) has been about framing men as the enemy. There is a lot of ignorance in the average human of either creed, combined with the resentment felt by any oppressed group means that "eliminate patriarchy and misogyny" cannot be the be all and end all of feminism. The enemy of feminism is not simply patriarchy and misogyny. it's not simply misogynists and misandrists, or societal imbalance. the enemy of all equality is as ever hatred and ignorance.

If I may amend your sentiment:

"The goal of feminism is to achieve equality between the sexes by eliminating patriarchy and misogyny, eliminating hatred and ignorance, and fostering the idea in everyone that we are all equal in the fellowship of humanity"

I'm pretty sure feminism's definition ended at that first comma, with everything after it being part of social justice in general. It's just so damn vague, and...peripheral to feminism and connected to it, but I would hardly call it a central part of feminism in the same that first part is.

No because misogyny and the patriarchy are not the only enemies of equality. If all you care about are womens rights then yes, all you need to fight are the misogynists and the social structure that supports their misogyny. If however you care about equality between both sexes you also need to fight the attitudes that let people like our aforementioned "Boys can't be raped, not really raped" friend think and act the way they do.

You have to fight for balance, not just fight against one side of the imbalance.

"the best way to make feminism stronger is including men into the fight"

Dude, women know best how they've been injured by male supremacy. I'm not interested in men weighing in on that. Men have been injured by male supremacy too, in a different, less virulent way, and men should be fighting for that. But to do that they have to give up certain privileges too, which is why most men are reluctant to get off their arses to do so. You fight for that, okay, and fight fiercely, but if men insist on having the same POV as women fighting male supremacy, and access to women-centric self-determination-dialogue, men do start to do some creepy apologist stuff, act entitled, and basically start replicating wider world dynamics.

And even cis guys talking about gender equality can be pretty problematic, though I guess you're trying. Female / non-cis feminists are gonna have a differing point of view about some of the conclusions you come up with. Speaking from experience and observation.

No, it's not about US including you. That's a very passive, entitled way of putting it. Get off your arse.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2584 ]

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Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

Re: Feminism MRA and Men