fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2598 ]

[ SECRET POST #2598 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2598 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Yeahhhh I think the same thing all the time.

Apparently, saying someone's god doesn't actually exist, or (at very worst) being kinda obnoxious, are crimes against humanity now. :/

Like I've said before, the SJW take on religious tolerance is basically just trying to make not caring about facts or evidence look enlightened. Which does not fucking work and oh god why are you people even trying? D:

Are you seriously surprised that people get angry when you insult them? That's seriously shocking to you?

Nope. Just boggled by people defending every belief they come across and thinking that makes them look more... I don't know, whatever the hell they're going for.

Mostly, I'm annoyed at how people talking about their religions as absolute fact is just great and should be defended at all costs, but an atheist doing the same thing is DISRESPECTING MY BELIEFS, OMG!!

Edited 2014-02-13 02:09 (UTC)

I'm okay with people having personal beliefs. I'm just not okay with saying that "anything goes" just because it is a personal belief. I'm sorry, but your religion should not be a free pass to justify shitty things. If your religion causes you not to vaccinate your children or to circumcise young girls, I don't care if it's your sacred belief, you can be damned sure I'll speak out against it.

Thisssss! Believe whatever you want within the confines of your own personal skull. Just don't start using it to fuck with other people. D:

I've seen it on both sides and it reeeeally depends on who you're talking to - someone who shares your belief or someone who doesn't.

...Pretty much, yeah. It's why "don't discuss religion or politics at the dinner table" is such a well-known rule. :P

I like discussing those things, but only with people who are civil...it seems like such a hard concept for many people to grasp. lol

Again, is it really that mindboggling when someone gets defensive when they get insulted?

Because that's the problem here - there's some people who can't talk about their beliefs as absolute fact without also insulting everyone who doesn't share their beliefs. When people don't just talk about the nonexistence of any divine being but also tack on the "and if you believe in one, it's because you're dumb and crazy". It's dumb and bad when religious people do it, and it's sure as shit dumb when some atheists (who are not representative but who still exist) do it. And it's unfair that we say 'atheists' when we really mean 'those jerks who happen to be atheists' but we don't really have a word for the subset of atheists who happen to act like jerks, unfortunately.

I wish we did have such a term (full disclosure, I am an atheist myself so I'm not opposed to the position in general) but this sort of thing does happen and I don't think anyone should get a pass for it. And it's not surprising when people get riled up in response to it.

I think a lot of people get weird about it even when they're not being personally insulted, though. In my experience, someone talking about their religion as true is just kind of accepted/ignored, and people just kind of brush it off as "well, they're a (thing they are), of course they think that." And like, someone assuming you share their beliefs and saying they'll pray for you or something is seen at very worst as well-meaning but annoying.

But an atheist saying "there is no god," or anything you'd just sort of expect an atheist to say is being a vile disrespectful killjoy. That's what I've seen, at least. So I just wish that atheists had as much leeway to mention their beliefs as most religious folks seem to get.

(For what it's worth, I don't generally go around antagonizing people, either. Because that's how you get stuck listening to religious people talking about their religion. Part of being an atheist, in my case, is having an extremely low tolerance for that shit. :P)

Hell, there are plenty of people who get bent out of shape when an atheist says something as innocuous as, "I'm an atheist," or "Atheists exist." There are billboard campaigns sponsored by atheist groups that say things like, "Don't believe in God? You're not alone!" and "Millions of people are good without God. Are you?" and these billboards get called hateful and inappropriate and are targeted for vandalism. The very fact that atheists exist and are willing to say so is perceived as hateful and inappropriate, let alone actually asserting their opinions about other people's religions.

But an atheist saying "there is no god,"
My problem with that is that it is stated as a fact, and usually it is thus implied that everyone who believes differently is an idiot or whatever. I have no issue with people believing whatever they want to believe for whatever religion (or lack thereof) they wish. As long as they don't hurt others and they don't present it as fact, as obviously no one knows anything really. (I am just as irked at religious people who state such things as facts too. Such as the Christian in my English class way back in high school who told my Jewish friend that she was going to hell because she didn't believe in the right God.)

And it's unfair that we say 'atheists' when we really mean 'those jerks who happen to be atheists' but we don't really have a word for the subset of atheists who happen to act like jerks, unfortunately.

Sure we do. The word is "assholes."

Too bad people use atheist as a stand in for it.

I wouldn't mind asshole atheists becoming a thing, though.

"assholes" means asshole, so it's not the word for "the specific subset of people who exhibit a specific kind of assholish behavior based on their specific views about the nonexistence of God"

The point is, their assholery is coincidental to their atheism, and if they weren't atheists, they'd be doing the same assholish things on a different topic. So calling them "assholes" and not tying it to the concept of atheism keeps from muddying the waters.

From what I've seen of this whole Euphoric thing, people think its a crime against humanity and pull the fedora tipping neckbeard "Euphoric Athiest" pictures out when you basically act like a smug superior douchebag when talking about people's religions and paint them like a crime against humanity, or saying that people must be really stupid for being in a religion even if they aren't the super devoted kind of religious.

And as usual its all about the attitude. If you go in acting all aggressive and condescending, then (assuming you aren't amongst like minded people) you will probably get a backlash. If you go in being/appearing level headed and reasonable, then someone gets really defensive about it, that's another story.

It's all in the phrasing.

An atheist says "I don't believe in God." That's not an insult, it's merely a statement of belief that you can legitimately call a Christian (or anyone from any other religion) an idiot for taking as an insult.

An atheist says "YOUR God doesn't exist." That is an insult because our hypothetical atheist is targeting the Christian (or Other Religion) specifically and is making it personal.

An atheist says "If you believe in God you're an idiot." That's an insult and if you cannot see it's an insult, you have some serious comprehension problems.

The latter two examples I would feel it is within my right to feel insulted by.

Doesn't "I don't believe in God" kind of imply "I don't believe in your god"? I would not be insulted by either one of these. Hell, I'm a Christian and I've said the second one to other Christians who were being homophobic.

On the topic in general, there is definitely a difference between how things like "God loves you" and "there is no god" are treated. They are exactly the same in how they act like their beliefs are fact but the first is much more acceptable in most circles than the second and I don't think that's right.

I think the difference is that "I don't". It comes across to me as "This is my opinion", so it feels less harsh than a flat "God does not exist".

"God does not exist" can get interpreted as having an unspoken "-and that makes you an idiot for believing He does" attached to it.

But on a whole, the issue of what ends up an insult in unclear comments like these is both the discernible intent (which is a lot more apparent in face-to-face conversations than in text-based online discussion) and how the listener/reader interprets it.

As for "God loves you" and "there is no god", at least with the first one, it can be seen as being meant as a nice thing.
The latter... is a tricky issue. Maybe in academic discussion I can pass it off as just one of those things, but if someone told me to my face "There is no God" I would feel insulted because it would seem like they are saying something against my belief in God.

I would not go up to a Hindu and tell them "There is no Shiva", because I know that's an insult, because I know how someone telling me "There is no God" would feel for me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2598 ]

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