fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2605 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2605 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Slenderman]

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[Saints Row 3]

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[Doctor Who]

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[Welcome to Night Vale, My Mad Fat Diary]

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[The Middle]

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[Steven Universe]

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[Kyuhyun and Seohyun]

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[Disney]

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[Teen Wolf]

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[Thor: Dark World]

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[The Avengers/Clark Gregg]

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[Teen Wolf]

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[Hannibal]

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[Fate/Stay Night]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 036 secrets from Secret Submission Post #372.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I saw a photoset on tumblr of a guy wearing different dresses and heels and looking really good. I was going to reblog it but at the bottom was a rant about the existence of gender fluidity, saying he (or she? or they?) was living proof of it. I have friends who ID as non-binary and I respect them but I don't fully understand it. It's not just about clothes, is it? If they said "I have a gender fluid style", I'd agree with it. I love it when people dress against convention. But I don't really understand the idea that putting on a skirt = your gender identity.

It doesn't equal gender identity, but it's a part of gender presentation, which is ideally a reflection of one's identity.

Sure, but when people say "I'm gender-fluid/genderqueer because I have a beard and wear a skirt." I don't really know what to take from that.

DA

This is true. But something that I worry about is that, if we start taking the simple act of stepping outside of culturally- and socially-defined gender boundaries as an indication that a person is genderfluid or of the opposite gender, then we might stop questioning and dismantling those boundaries.

Gender norms and roles don't, for the most part, correspond to anything real. For a long time, that's how we were approaching them: as constructs to be ripped into. Masculinity and femininity are moving targets; they present differently across time and place. This means that the coding of traits and behaviors and clothing and etc as masculine or feminine is wrong and part of an oppressive structure that elevates one group above the other.

Now, it seems as if masculinity and femininity are being treated as static, as if the coding is correct, as if there's nothing wrong with the categories themselves but only with the fact that it isn't acceptable to slide between them.

I don't feel like I'm expressing this very well at all, but what I'm trying to get at is that I think that a lot of people, by saying things like "I am genderfluid because I wear a skirt and heels," have started reinforcing gender norms and roles instead of challenging them.

by saying things like "I am genderfluid because I wear a skirt and heels," have started reinforcing gender norms and roles instead of challenging them.

New Anon to the thread.

I think about this a lot. Among my trans friends it's actually not that way, but in a lot of online discussions and fic featuring trans characters this happens a lot. Like male character headcanon as trans = fic about them going out with girl friends and learning how to shop and put on make up and shave their legs. Like that's the epitome of being female. And I understand why someone would want to explore that avenue of gender, I feel like all these discussions and fic etc are just reinforcing gender stereotypes and norms and more contributing to a problem than really exploring any issues like they might think they're doing.

/ramble

This got a little tl;dr and it's only just one person's personal stroy, but here goes:

My gender fluidity is a result of being born trans and raised to be cis. I'm also hetero cis and homo trans, which confused me for a long time. I never had anyone to talk to about it and adhered mostly to the gender roles in which I was raised. Now I present as a man sometimes and a woman sometimes, so I think of myself as gender fluid. I don't care about pronouns or how the world sees me or what the world thinks. But I do care about how I see myself in the mirror and how certain people in my life perceive me depending on how I'm presenting. Those people are understanding and supportive and make my life better in every way, not the least of which has to do with my gender issues. One is my SO and coming out to them was the bravest thing I have ever done. I am fortunate that their sexuality is compatible and that they find me mentally and physically and sexually attractive as both a man and a woman. But if that hadn't been the case, I don't think I could have gone back to living by one gender role. Once I'd admitted everything to myself it was hard to do that, but I think it would have been impossible once I'd verbalized it to a loved one.

tl;dr - The gender roles I was raised to adhere to are so ingrained at this point in my life that I can't permanently transition, but I can't face the hellish existence that was living solely by those same gender roles.

This makes sense to me and thank you for sharing such a personal story. I might be wording this badly, but it's just the people who say that wearing different clothes is what makes them gender-fluid that confuse me, but then I don't know their whole story and it's not my business.

...that's pretty much what you said before and I totally missed it and I'm sorry. I got so wrapped up in memories and feelings that I just...yeah, sorry.

It could be anything, really. It might be that they are struggling with gender identity and one way to cope or test things out is to be very overt about it. It could e that they're doing it to mask something else, reasoning that they'd rather be ridiculed for something that doesn't really apply to them than something that does. It could be they want to be a special snowflake. It could be that their cat Snowflake ran away from home. Ok, it probably isn't the cat, but what do I know?

I try not to judge but it's hard not to sometimes, especially if I get the special snowflake vibe from someone. I don't know why but I find it insulting and feel almost like it invalidates my personal struggle. I think, too, that I'm jealous of people who grew up or live in an environment where they are free to express something outside of what were societal norms when I was growing up.

I just try to remind myself that I don't know their whole story, as you say, and also that I can't feel what they're feeling. I don't know what their motivation is. Who they are right this second is not the only person they've ever been or ever will be, and that even if it is a special snowflake fad it's still a valid thing in their life at that moment.

I'm not always able to remember that stuff and sometimes I just want to throw something.

It's okay! I was worried about how I sounded in my original post and I still feel like I'm tripping all over myself. I do appreciate the perspective you've given me. And I'm glad I'm not alone with my frustrations. I think I understand why you would be frustrated/jealous of that.

Maybe it's more that it's a very complicated thing and they're talking about *representing* their gender fluidity rather than *putting on a skirt means I'm a girl*. Does that make sense?

I consider myself gender fluid. It's really really really hard to explain why I feel that way. But when I'm feeling more on the fem end of the spectrum I do feel like wearing a lot of traditional femme clothes - skirts, dresses, jewelery. And when I'm feeling more on the masculine end I often feel like wearing a lot of "boys clothes".

Sometimes it becomes a sort of shorthand for what I'm feeling. I don't actually agree that X = only for girls and Y = only for boys, but it's a really simple way to say "I am feeling X/Y today."

This was probably a lot of rambling that makes no sense. Like I said, it's a concept I can understand in myself and my feelings but find nearly impossible to explain.

stuff like dress and appearance usually gets filed under gender expression, rather than gender identity, so their "rant" doesn't seem to be fully understanding of the differences between the two. those differences are really important.

My god, you got to the heart of this so much easier and more succinctly than I was able to.

I was sitting here last night trying to figure out how to express this exact idea. Thank you for doing it for me! That was going to bug me...ha.

[ SECRET POST #2605 ]

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