[ SECRET POST #2650 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2650 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #379.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Frankly, you sounds completely ludicrous, as genocide, torture and rape are all widely considered distasteful subject matters that nowadays we are usually expected to warn for in fanwork. People's reactions to these things go beyond "eww, creepy, gross"; even in fiction they can be genuinely upsetting. There are "silly" trigger warnings but nobody would consider those to be such. If someone finds the idea of reading fluffy villain porn about a rapist off-putting, they are perfectly sensible to avoid it, because fandom isn't some kind of test of character that demands you to put yourself through experiences you'd prefer not to. Maybe you're not quite as mature as you thought, as you seem to thing the mark of an adult is the ability to be apathetic in the face of things that most people consider upsetting.

[(Anonymous)]

If they want to avoid it, fine, but they have no right to come screaming their being upset at me who doesn't give a shit.

[(Anonymous)]

...and you thought that comment the anon made about being put off by that character being a rapist was directed at you, specifically? LOL who do you even think you are?

[(Anonymous)]

"Most people" find fluffy porn about a rapist upsetting? Looking at the Silmarillion fandom I'd day it's the complete opposite. Nice projecting though.

[(Anonymous)]

This is a general observation, not related to Tolkien in specific; stomaching torture and genocide and going all "ewww, creepy, gross" at rape or even a grope is completely illogical.

[(Anonymous)]

Your post was about Morgoth, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

The last sentence - and indeed most of that reply - is in direct response to the general sentiment of that comment, stating that it's illogical to find torture, genocide and rape upsetting.

[(Anonymous)]

Anon you're addressing here, I see you misunderstood my comment - I didn't mean to say that it's illogical to find torture, genocide and rape upsetting, I meant to say that it's illogical to find rape upsetting and be okay with torture and genocide, which are objectively far worse crimes and which Morgoth (and many more beloved villains, hence why I made it a general statement) have committed.

[(Anonymous)]

I see, but why would you assume anything having to do with an emotional reaction to an upsetting subject matter is logical? It is entirely dependent upon a person's body of experience; where are these strictly-defined-by-logic rules which dictate what does or does not make a person tick? I can read shippy fic of a character who engages in violence, but rape hits closer to home for me and I see no logic in pushing myself through that for the sake of fanfiction. Why do you find it absurd, and what does some stranger's fic-reading habit even have to do with you?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not the one that goes ranting at people for writing fanfiction about a genocidal rapist, for one. You don't have to push yourself, but if you want to be respected you should respect others, too.

[(Anonymous)]

This is a thread about Morgoth being portrayed fluffily, in which I happened to share the opinion that I'm not into that kind of thing because of this particular issue I have with the character. This is my reason, and other people in the thread have shared their differing reasons for not liking this portrayal as well (wanting to see Sauron more badass, hating woobification of villains in general, etc.). Did I at any point add, "...and so no one should write this ever because it upsets me and if you do you're a terrible person"? If you somehow read a rant or demand into that, you're the one projecting.

[(Anonymous)]

Very well; my apologies for assuming. Tumblr has jaded me about fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

Well I don't see Eol being a fandom fave.

[(Anonymous)]

Maeglin is.
And Eol isn't even a bad guy in that regard, Tolkien himself wrote: "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years."

[(Anonymous)]

Maeglin is controversial. He's got about as many fans as non-supporters. Eol's case is definitely debatable since it's not in every version of their story that the "not wholly unwilling" line is present - and even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that he used trickery to ensnare Aredhel, whether she knew of it or not.

[(Anonymous)]

It's in my version and that's good enough for me.
Even if he used trickery, she still married and bed him of her own will. That is not debatable seeing as she would have died otherwise, rape kills elves.

[(Anonymous)]

"Rape kills elves" is only stated in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, which has been known to be contradictory with other materials, and therefore debatable. Anyway, if you're in the habit of sticking only to one version of the text and thinking any Silm-related issue is final and not up for debate, I think this is not the fandom for you -- this kind of thing is the lifeblood of this fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

That part isn't contradicted anywhere, though - in fact it's implicitly confirmed with what happened with Celebrian during LotR.

[(Anonymous)]

If that were the case, wouldn't it also be confirmed that Celebrian died from her ordeal? (It was implied she did not.) Tolkien was not specific about what her torture consisted of either, so anything we can say on the matter is only conjecture to begin with. In any case, since enough of Laws & Customs is contradictory, many people choose not to fit any of it into their understanding of Tolkien's universe -- and even that hasn't gotten into the knowledge vs intent moral debate we could have regarding Eol's actions.

[(Anonymous)]

Her sons rescued her and Elrond was able to heal her body, but her spirit was so utterly broken from whatever happened to her, that she rejected life in Middle-Earth and sailed to Valinor. This isn't all too different from the "rape kills elves" canon, where bodily life is rejected and one passes on to Mandos. I think Elladan, Elrohir and Elrond rescued her before her fea could detatch itself from her body, but the damage was already done so she ended up leaving anyway. Compare this to the many years Aredhel spent serenely with Eol, and her bearing of his child, which wouldn't have possible had she been unwilling.

[(Anonymous)]

*wouldn't have been
Sorry for the typo.

[(Anonymous)]

Personally, I don't equate rejecting life in Middle Earth and sailing to Valinor to find healing with rejecting all life utterly to the point where fea detaches from hroa. In my view, this either indicates that Celebrian was not raped and the damage done to her was via other kinds of torture, or if she was, that Laws & Customs was wrong on this count and Elves do not in fact die from sexual assault.

And even then, I would still argue that while Aredhel was not aware of Eol's ensnarement and found some happiness in her lack of knowledge, we as readers know of his motives and are able to judge his actions from an omniscient vantage point not available to Aredhel, a character in the story. To say that Eol did nothing wrong and is "not a bad guy" in his and Aredhel's story is something I could never agree with, as he not only entrapped a woman but then refused to let her leave his home to see her family even after she has become his wife.

[(Anonymous)]

I see your point but elves are known to withstand torture, and female elves are canonically equal in all aspects to their male counterparts. Rape is a special kind of evil to them, and the only one they can't physically stand. Hence why I believe what happened to Celebrian was rape.

I find the word "ensnarement" weird. When I read the Silmarillion, the scene that played out to me was that Eol merely made it so that her path through the woods would lead her to him, so that they could meet. The text I have reads:

"He set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants as he had, silent and secret as their master. And when Aredhel, weary with wandering came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcome her, and led her into his house. And there she remained; for Eol took her wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again. It is not said that Aredeghel was wholly unwilling..."

You may find this underhanded, but considering that Aredhel is an extremely willful individual, and considering what discussed about the "rape kills elves" above, I maintain my idea that no rape occurred, and that Aredhel married him entirely of her own will. What would have Eol done had she rejected him? That's a great question for AU writers, but that's not what we're discussing here. My post read "Eol isn't even a bad guy in that regard" and I keep to that, seeing as we were talking about rape.

As for not letting Aredhel seek the Noldor, she had agreed to that. I'm not going to think him a bad guy if he sets rules that his wife accepts.
I do think him a bad guy for trying to kill his son after Meaglin and Aredhel fled to Gondolin, but I also understand he's a tragic character much like his son is.

SA

[(Anonymous)]

"Aredeghel"... that's a typo on my part, sorry again. I don't have a weird Silmarillion version.

[(Anonymous)]

Elves can withstand torture but that's not to say that it doesn't harm and debilitate them. Examples from the Silmarillion include Maedhros, who eventually healed but had "the shadow of pain" remaining in him, and Gwindor, who was maimed and never the same again. Both of the above lost the will to live at one point due to the torment. Anyway, the issue here is that if you want to take Laws & Customs at its word on this point, then Celebrian would have died from being raped, because that's what L&C specifically states. But clearly she did not depart for Mandos, so if you maintain that she was raped (it was, indeed, impled) then L&C must have been wrong. You can't have it both way; Celebrian's case doesn't support L&C's claim that Elves always die from rape.

What? Are you serious? "He set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood." --> This is classic entrapment. He saw her wandering, lusted for her, and then used magic to ensure she was lost and alone and vulnerable, and therefore receptive to his advances because he was the only one there to help her. If Aredhel had known this, would she have agreed to marry him? "Underhanded" is really putting it lightly; if you use tricks to basically kidnap someone and make them your spouse, you shouldn't be surprised if readers describe your story as a rape narrative. And to go back to my previous point: in earlier writings, Tolkien did not mince words about it. Eol "took [Aredhel] to wife by force". Even the softening of "not wholly unwilling" doesn't make it okay because what does "not wholly unwilling" even mean?

Given that premise of entrapment, there's already little sympathy I can dredge up for this character, but as for the rules he sets up that she "accepts"... are we not going to examine Aredhel's motives? I can hardly imagine her easily agreeing to never leaving Nan Elmoth and seeking her family, when her very reason for leaving Gondolin was to seek out her kin. The woman who told her brother-king, "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me," now just happily accepts these restrictive commands and has no ill feelings on the matter? That relationship is deeply problematic even if you try to maintain that he didn't technically rape her.

(Plus, people never to remember that Eol never told anyone his spear was poisoned, therefore allowing Aredhel to die even while she was pleading for his life. The one he was trying to kill was Maeglin, but he sure didn't seem to care that Aredhel ended up dead.)