[ SECRET POST #2666 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2666 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.


__________________________________________________



10.


__________________________________________________



11.










Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #381.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[darkmanifest]

Yes, it does. Him being a rape victim doesn't magically make what he did to Tysha not rape.

[(Anonymous)]

It doesn't make it not rape, but it does make him not the rapist. He was the instrument of his father's crime, not the willing perpetrator of his own.

Tywin raped Tysha. He just did it with someone else's dick.

[darkmanifest]

Ah, no, I don't agree, because then we can extend it say that the guards were just following orders, and that Tywin is the only one responsible for any of it. Gang rape scenarios often have a mastermind who pressure the other participants, but while it means the others are less responsible than the mastermind, it doesn't make them not responsible at all. Unless Tyrion lost all physical control of his limbs, he committed rape. Does he deserve to be punished for it? Not necessarily so, no. But would Tysha be right to regard him as one of her rapists? Yes, I think so.

[chardmonster]

Yeah, the thirteen year old should have taken control of the situation and stopped the gang rape by armed men, what a horrible person.

[darkmanifest]

Oh, my god, really? I want to answer this seriously, but I feel like you must be kidding. I'm never sure with you.

[chardmonster]

I'm not.

You seem to think that a kid being forced to rape someone makes him a victimizer (how exactly is the thirteen year old supposed to resist here?). You seem to be following a rulebook rather than looking at context. Somehow, if we acknowledge that Tyrion is being raped, we're saying she's being less raped?

There are a hell of a lot of situations in warzones where men are forced to rape women by other men. By forced I mean literally being told they will be hurt or worse if they don't do it. I don't mean "social pressure."

[darkmanifest]

But I agreed several times above that Tyrion was, indeed, raped/violated/assaulted/any word you want to apply to it by being forced to rape Tysha. My position is that acknowledging Tyrion was raped doesn't make Tysha herself any less raped by him. That is what I'm arguing against, that Tysha's rape by Tyrion wasn't rape because he was also forced. They were both violated, not one more or less than the other.

[chardmonster]

Alright. That makes more sense. It's not what your original statement looks like, though.

[darkmanifest]

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that particular comment was where I completely fucked up in what I tried to express.

[(Anonymous)]

But she really wasn't raped by him, she was raped by the father. This is how it works when you are dealing with children.

[darkmanifest]

Which is something I didn't consider as much as I should have from the start, that Tyrion wasn't an adult, regardless of how he might have been regarded in-universe at the time.

[(Anonymous)]

This. If we're following the rulebook, then yes, African child soldiers commit killing. We as society do not point fingers at them and say they are the victimizers, even if it's their fingers on the trigger.

[(Anonymous)]

wow there's a whole world between grown guards following their lord's orders vs a child who is being forced by their abusive parent. you can advocate for tysha without making tyrion's own abuse out the window. there's no 'most raped' contest.

[darkmanifest]

You're right that they're worlds apart and I think I went too far trying to make my point by comparing the two. My apologies.

[(Anonymous)]

Even Tysha's feelings can only be speculated upon, however. We can safely surmised that she felt victimized, and it's possible she holds Tyrion equally culpable, but we don't know that.

[darkmanifest]

True, we don't. I'm saying it would be fair if she did regard his actions as rape. Though I doubt she would hold him morally culpable. He was an much as victim as she was, so I can imagine her forgiving him for his unwilling part in his victimization.

[(Anonymous)]

:/

[(Anonymous)]

There's a difference between the exertion of social pressure, and the coercion of a crippled child by a perpetual abuser who is, implicitly or otherwise, threatening violence and death.

The guards may have been following orders, but they're just as likely to have been willing recruits, because the Westerosi treatment of sex workers (and it's almost inconceivable that they weren't also fed the story that Tysha was a prostitute) is frankly appalling. We'll never know, because they're not actually characters.

Tysha is well within her rights to view everyone involved in her rape in the most negative conceivable light, including Tyrion. That's not in question. His culpability from a god's-eye viewpoint - whether or not he can reasonably be called a rapist by out-of-universe viewers who know the entirety of the situation - is.

[darkmanifest]

You're right, I was wrong to hold the guards and Tyrion in a remotely similar light. As for whether or not Tyrion can be called a rapist, yeah, that's under question. My position is that it's possible that he can be rapist and not culpable for the crime at the same time, specifically because of Tysha's right to view everyone involved in a negative light regardless of the circumstances. The total lack of perspective from her really grates on me. She's just something that happened to Tyrion long ago, instead of being a whole person.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, no, that doesn't sit right with me at all. That sends the message to abused children that they are responsible for the things they're forced to do as part of their abuse, that they can't process their abuse without first processing the guilt they apparently should feel.

[darkmanifest]

Tyrion shouldn't feel guilty for something he had no control over. I wasn't really focused on his feelings because I'm trying really hard to look at things from Tysha's position as subject to his unwilling actions, but I was wrong to compare him to the adult guards who apparently weren't threatened with death or anything comparable to what Tyrion lived with as a child under an abusive man.

[darkmanifest]

This comment was completely off base and I apologize to everyone involved in this discussion for it, particularly survivors that I upset. What I should have said was this: Tyrion was used to commit rape by someone else's hand, yes, but he was still a participant in rape, unwillingly so. I was wrong to say he was responsible for his participation; he just participated, and the responsibility belonged to the grown men.