[ SECRET POST #2666 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2666 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #381.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

the way you are trying to stick this point is making me, a survivor, feel really uncomfortable and upset, for what that's worth

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry about that, anon. Is there something particular that's upsetting you about this conversation?

[darkmanifest]

I apologize for that. I've heard the point from survivors before that a victim can also be a victimizer, which is part of why I'm sticking to it. If you have the energy to tell me why it's wrong, I would really appreciate it - I won't drag you into a further argument about it, just absorb what you tell me and leave it at that. But if I've made you too uncomfortable to do so, I understand, and I will try to figure out on my own why it might be wrong.

DA, TW for discussion of child sexual abuse

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not AYRT, so I can't speak to the reason for their discomfort at all, but I'm another survivor who also finds your argument incredibly uncomfortable, so I can offer one perspective on why it may be upsetting.

For me, your insistence on declaring Tyrion responsible for his part in Tysha's assault rings very close to the silencing tactics used by real life abusers who target multiple victims. By forcing their victims to be active participants in their own abuse, they make sure to drive home the point that those victims are faulty and wrong, and will, if they dare tell anyone about the abuse, be in trouble themselves. At the same time, it severely damages any relationship that might exist between the victims - they can't lean on each other for support, because one or both feels guilty about their "fault" in the situation, and feels resentful for the other's part in it. It solidifies the control the abuser has over their victims - they don't dare tell anyone for fear that they will be blamed for their own abuse, and they're unlikely to be able to work with each other to try to escape or short-circuit the abuse, because they've been blocked from forming any meaningful trust by their abuser manipulating them against one another.

While I know that's absolutely not the position you're coming from in this discussion, your argument (and the fact that it does reflect a larger societal perspective) does lend credence to that sort of manipulation - it's essentially saying by implication to people who are or have been in that situation, "see, you can't tell anyone what happened to you, because they will hold you at fault".

sa

[(Anonymous)]

And I see above you apologized for your wording while I was trying to bash this out in something resembling a coherent fashion. I'm sorry, I didn't think to refresh before hitting post.

Re: sa

[darkmanifest]

Only just saw this addendum, and your post is still entirely relevant (and coherent, from my perspective) regardless. If I'd considered the points you bring up here in the first place, I wouldn't have used that wording to begin with.

Re: DA, TW for discussion of child sexual abuse

[darkmanifest]

Thank you very much for this, really. Like I said, I'm just going to absorb what you've told me and remember it from now on so that I don't make the mistake of lending credence to that kind of thinking again.

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't that point about victims and victimizers usually used in relation to former abuse victims who go on to commit abuse themselves? It doesn't take into account a situation like this, where the crime being committed isn't just as a result of psychological scarring but an active part of the original ongoing abuse. I think that when we talk about victims who are also victimizers, we're not bringing in cases where the victimizing is perpetuated with practically a gun to their head.

[(Anonymous)]

Mostly, although it's also used in relation to current abuse victims who themselves (either out of rage and frustration or because they've normalized their own abuse) victimize a third party not involved in the initial abuse - the abused child who in turn abuses their own siblings being a common example.

Either way, it's not really applicable to the situation under discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

Ah yes, that's also applicable. Still, goes to show you can't just take talking points from one issue and plug them into another.

[darkmanifest]

I've also seen it applied to cases where adults are forced by pain of death or similar threats to participate in rape; there usually isn't a question of whether they're legally or morally culpable if the coercion is plain. It wasn't a proper comparison in Tyrion's case, though, because he was an abused child, like you said, and assaulting Tysha was just another part of his own abuse (a point that I didn't consider).

tw: csa

[(Anonymous)]

I was the original survivor there and the other person kind of explained what my issue is to an extent. the man who abused us when we were little made a point of involving all of us in each other's experiences, telling us we'd never prove we didn't want to be there and people would always know or suspect that we'd just done it because we liked it and wanted to. it did create a sense of mistrust amongst us which made it easier to control his large group of victims, because we internalized what he told us and never trusted each other. it's also something I'm still working through today with my shrink because part of me is always horrified and feels like it is still potentially true, because that is what he ingrained into us. so the whole thing just hit me in a really bad way and I'm actually really relieved that you handled it so gently after I said anything because I was braced for dismissal or worse, to be honest.

Re: tw: csa

[darkmanifest]

Thank you so much for coming back to tell me this, and especially for commenting in the first place despite me making you feel you'd be dismissed. Again, I'm sorry for upsetting you and the other anon (and any other survivors reading this), you've both explained things and given me perspective that I should have thought about more thoroughly (particularly that this was a discussion about a child, not an adult) from the beginning, without putting you in a bad place. Thank you again.

Re: tw: csa

[(Anonymous)]

Different anon; just wanted to say that's a classy response. Way to not be most of the jackoffs arguing on the internet. :)