fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2677 ]

[ SECRET POST #2677 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2677 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[The Scribbler]

__________________________________________________

02.

[bioshock infinite: burial at sea]

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

[True Detective]

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

[fire emblem/super smash bros]

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

[World of Warcraft]

__________________________________________________

11.

__________________________________________________

12. [SPOILERS for Hannibal]

__________________________________________________

13. [SPOILERS for Bioshock: Infinite]

__________________________________________________

14. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]

__________________________________________________

15. [WARNING for rape/abuse I'm assuming? Ramsay/Theon stuff]
http://i.imgur.com/Xo0GSkI.png

__________________________________________________

16. [WARNING for mental illness/hospitals]

__________________________________________________

17. [WARNING for depression]

__________________________________________________

18. [WARNING for eating disorders]

__________________________________________________

19. [WARNING for rape]

[Game of Thrones]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #382.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

OP, I feel ashamed we're from the same country.

What the fuck were you thinking, if you were thinking at all? If you're not a troll?

Are Nazis overused as villains? Hell, yes!

But would it be nice to stop seeing them because the world should get "over" the holocaust? No. Fuck you, if you honestly believe that.

Just because other countries committed atrocities too doesn't mean we should keep coming back to the holocaust. And whatever Israel is doing right now has absolutely nothing to do with that.

And I'm sick of people claiming that the holocaust was somehow worse than anything else in the history of humanity ever, when this argument is used to explain why countries never look at their own crimes that closely. People (especially horrible SJW dumbfucks on tumblr) actually go "yeah, sure we did horrible stuff too, but look at those whacky Nazis, they were 10 times worse. And while you're looking we're busy sweeping our own skeletons under the rug".

All these things need to be looked at and condemned. Without trying to engage in relativism. Without simultaneously going "but at least it wasn't as bad as X and we should be glad for that". NO! There's nothing to go "but" about.

Don't you see how hypocritical, how fucking sick and disturbing that kind of argumentation is? When you murder someone you don't go "well at least I didn't rape them first with a rusty nail, so really I should be awarded a gold star and a light sentence". Deal with your own damn guilt without pointing fingers or trying to find something within the whole mess to make you feel not as bad about mass murder. For once. Just for fucking once. Then go back to reminding others of what they did.

So the holocaust was more industrialized/efficient/etc than atrocity X/Y/Z. Well, so what? They had the technology and infrastructure for it. I bet the Trail of Tears would have looked very differently if the Americans had had all the industry, the chemicals and the facilities the Nazis had. But they didn't.

Same with the genocides committed in Africa both by Europeans and Africans. Put the right infrastructure there and you will see a similar kind of a perfect storm of slaughter, even in this enlightened century.

I don't think it's a question of technology of infrastructure, for most people.

I agree, it's really disgusting going "yeah, we did something terrible… but not as terrible as the Nazis!" because this is not a sliding scale of horribleness, and terrible deeds shouldn't be judged when compared to history.

But I also don't think your statement of "if other people in other times had this technology/infrastructure, it'd be the same" because I think what most people find terrifying about the holocaust is not how technologically advanced everything was, but that people sat out and planned this. For months. People sat down and they went over all these details and said "yes, we should build gas chambers this large, and the railtrack would be here, and this are the criteria for being killed, and this for being taken to labour, and here's what we do with the belonging, and the hair, and the clothes" etc, etc. And several tens of people looked at this, and added to this, and changed it, and checked and double checked and approved, and it seems like none of them found anything wrong with it.

It just didn't happen often. When the Soviets starved the Ukrainians they didn't sit and meticulously plan how to starve them for months. They just took all the food, and the starving for a side effect they used. The Tutsi didn't plan for months exactly how to kill all the Hutu and in what method, all they cared about was the end result. It's the idea that people could actually sit and think about what they were doing and not give a damn that frightens so many people.

I think what most people find terrifying about the holocaust is not how technologically advanced everything was, but that people sat out and planned this.

To me that comes down more to the meticulousness of the German than the fact that they thought about it a lot before actually doing it. I think in most cases of genocide there is a long period of thinking about it from the side that is about to perform the genocide, I think it's in the nature of the German people to do things well and thorough.

At the same time, I'm no history buff by any means, I do know that some of it was planned beforehand, but I'm not sure how much of it was really planned for and how much was something they were later faced with and had to deal with there and then.

I think it's in the nature of the German people to do things well and thorough.

This is such a lazy stereotype.

Just the term "the German people" makes my skin itch. Ew.

Like germans are a different species and that's why they're so good at organising bbq's and mass murder.

No, but I do think that it's in the German culture to be quite thorough and very meticulous, especially when you look at the governmental bodies. I say this as someone who is not German, but does live in Germany. I view the German culture as less passionate and less spontaneous and yes, very good at organising stuff, among them bbq's.

Noooo you misunderstood something. We're good at talking about organising stuff but - especially in politics - that's usually where it ends.

(The following comment is a bit tongue-in-cheek.)

Which actually brings us back to the original comment, there was a lot of talk and planning and whatnot involved (apparently) before the actual Holocaust as opposed to other situations where the people committing the genocide 'just did it'. Imagine if the Nazis were stopped a couple of years earlier, they only would have been in the planning stages. (And all of a sudden my comment turned out a bit darker than I intended...)

Well, I guess it shows there that a) English is my second language and b) you're not giving me the benefit of the doubt.
Trust me, I'm originally from one of Germany's neighbouring countries and although I've come across many (bad and negative) stereotypes of Germany, this is not one that I know of.
Maybe this is only true for the part of Germany that I'm currently living in, but yeah, here they're very meticulous and good at organising stuff. And I mean that in the best possible way.

>Just the term "the German people" makes my skin itch. Ew.

what

"German" is a pretty young ethnicity, and the defining moments of "Germans" as a group are pretty disgusting (1848 aside). Germans themselves tend to identify more strongly with their area (i.e. Bavaria, Swabia, Vierlande etc.) than the country.

Erm...no. I really have to disagree here.
If you mean "German" in the sense of "being a citizen of the Federal Republic of Germany", then yeah, you could call it 'young' in comparison to other ethnicities, but quite honestly I doubt that anyone anchors their ehtnic origin as "German" in 1949, or 1848. And people considering themselves German started way before that (just think of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation). The definition and the question who being German did or did not include shifted over time along with borders and empires, but the concept is not new.

And I really would disagree with the notion that Germans identify more strongly with their regional ties than with Germany as a whole. Maybe your experiences are different, but I've never met anyone in my entire life for whom that was the case. People with trong regional ties and reginal pride and identification, definitely. But that this feeling of e.g. being Hessian somehow supercedes the notion of being German is a whole new idea to me. On the contrary, I personally think over the past generation or so the importance of regional origin has lessened, actually, and since the 1950s there have been plenty of positive things I would associate "Being German" with. So respectfully, I think that you're making a blanket statement that does not at all hold up to my personal experience.

Do you not think other genocides or displacements took planning? Because they did. Some of them were less organised, and others more. And yes, that requires some pretty cold-hearted/-headed thinking, but the Nazis were not the first. Again, the differences would come to scale. But what your writing sounds like all the other atrocities in history occured spontaneously.

I agree - although at times your post kind of reads like you sort of actually want to take attention away from the Holocaust, but I basically agree with what I think you're saying.

The thing is, taking seriously other genocides and atrocities does not mean taking away attention from the Holocaust, because the Holocaust was still a genocide. It means changing how we think about the Holocaust, and being more specific about the reality of it. I think there's a tendency to limit one's thoughts on it to "Germans killed six million Jews because they were nasty, it was the worst thing ever and very sad, let's all feel very sad, okay done." And that contributes to the phenomenon were other atrocities don't get considered, and it also, I think, leads to a misremembering of the Holocaust; it reduces its complexity and the depths of what happened to a one-line story. But changing that doesn't mean people will stop focusing on it, nor should it.

Also, yes, plenty of people could have done things like the Holocaust, if they had the technology and the time, but they didn't. That's a relevant fact in itself. Not that it makes other atrocities that happened before it less bad - but the fact that the Holocaust is the first modern technological genocide, that nothing like it had ever happened, is part of its historical significance.

The thing is, taking seriously other genocides and atrocities does not mean taking away attention from the Holocaust, because the Holocaust was still a genocide.

Um, how is that not what I wrote? I said that because other countries committed atrocities as well it should not keep us from coming back to look at the holocaust?

but the fact that the Holocaust is the first modern technological genocide, that nothing like it had ever happened, is part of its historical significance.

I totally agree with this point. But the fact that it took a very specific context for it to occur, doesn't mean its happening should be used to relativise the pain and suffering that was forced upon people elsewhere. The fact that the holocaust was unique in its execution, does not mean other events should be brushed aside or considered more forgiveable incidents in order to focus on the holocaust as the worst thing that ever happened instead.

I don't want to say that focus on other events should take away from focus on the holocaust, but that focus on the holocaust should not take away from drawing attention on other events.

Let me talk about Germany here for a second: The Holocaust is a compulsory subject at school. Depending on the type of school WW2 and the Holocaust get explored every year for 3-5 school years. And that's a good thing.

But unless you've got a teacher who is into colonial history the Herero Massacre (that happened only a couple of decades before WW2) is hardly ever mentioned. Everyone is ready to genuflect for the atrocities committed for WW2 but most European countries are not that keen on coming clean about the shit colonialism led to.

Talking about the Holocaust might seem more important, and there's more to talk about than with some other cases because its recent history and well documented and also because of the factors you mentioned, but it doesn't mean the rest should be swept under the rug.

And this is a thing that frequently happens both on the internet as well as in the real world. And by people who really should know better. From history students to teachers to politicians. "But at least it wasn't as bad as what the Nazis did" should not be an argument when processing other kinds of genocide honestly, but it is often brought up.

And to me these arguments sound a lot like people don't want to look at their own history too closely, but rather would pretend to learn from other countries' mistakes, because they were worse and more noteworthy and there's more to discuss.

And that's fucking sad.

How can we better oursevles if we condemn one thing but avoid being honest when analysing our other mistakes on their own terms? No crime should have someone going out of their way to find a way to pat themselves on the back about it, because it wasn't as bad as what your neighbor did.

(I don't mean to equate the massacre with the holocaust, because these things cannot be equated, but this is just one example (and one that happened very close to WW2) for how dishonest even we Germans are about our own history even while owning up for what happened during the holocaust.

The thing with the Holocaust is, other nations had a lot of interest in making us pay for it, and to make sure we did not deny what happened. And this is a VERY good thing, that carried over to modern day Germany. Denying the Holocaust is a crime. This is a good thing.

But with a lot of other atrocities the global village sleeps, and crimes get downplayed or forgotten.

We need to put pressure on each other to admit our sins and treat them honestly, without this veil of "but country YXZ did something worse, so stop looking at me!")

This.

And the Armenian Genocide which, you know, was used as a tool for Hitler to promote the Holocaust.

Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?

ayrt

Yeah, I think I was agreeing with you much more than I seemed, and I just kind of failed to bring that across. So apologies on that.

I think what you're saying here is very sensible. To put it another way, maybe - the fact that Germany has studying the Holocaust as a compulsory subject is a good thing. But (a) it should be done in a way that looks at the reality of the Holocaust, instead of turning it into nothing more than a symbol, and (b) the same concept should be extended to other atrocities and especially the same concept should be applied in other countries.

Unfortunately you do run into political problems - not just in terms of not wanting to examine the history and not look to closely, either. I think in a lot of places, for whatever atrocities you want to talk about, there are still strong political lobbies that are actually apologists for whatever happened. The fact that no one in the political mainstream is willing to defend the Holocaust or justify it or minimize it is actually a lot more rare than you'd think. If for instance in America you tried to teach about the extermination of the Native Americans or whatever, there would be significant lobbies against that - shit, there are significant lobbies that want to refer to the Civil War as the War Between The States and talk about how it was the North's fault. If you want to talk about Japanese war crimes in Japan, that's a controversial issue. If you want to talk about the Armenian genocide in Turkey, I think that might actually be illegal. If you want to talk about Britain's long and storied history of colonial oppression there, there's going to be a significant lobby that objects to that. A lot of these things are unfortunately politically "live" in a way that the Holocaust isn't - and that's actually probably a reason it's important to educate people about it in the way you're suggesting here.

I am actually very glad we agree.

This last point is what I tried to allude to by saying we need each other, i. e. global pressure, and that's part of why the Holocaust is politically dead as you said. Or at least denying or even defending what happened gets you into trouble with large parts of the world. I realise this is an ideal and nigh impossible to achieve on a political level right now, or even in the forseeable future, because of the forces in play you mentioned.

It's easy to understand why people want these rewrites of history, and why they'd rather not examine certain parts of it too closely. But it's all the more reason to post about it, isn't it?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2677 ]

This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.

Re: This will go unread because timezones, but fuck it, I'm upset.