fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2686 ]

Not necessarily. I (nayrt) consider myself egalitarian, not feminist, primarily because I'm pro-life* and this is not permitted if you want to be a feminist. I do not discuss this with people, ever, because virtually every time I have ever stated it anywhere, no matter how I said it or the context, I get personal attacks and harassment for days. I've been internet stalked before by someone who took it extremely personally that I wouldn't change my mind after she told me to kill myself as an enemy of all other women. Stalked for MONTHS, with more of the "you're a horrible person who deserves to die for the hate you're filled with, you should be raped" stuff. I refuse to attach myself to a movement that mandates I should celebrate and promote something I view as murder. I won't go around attacking people for disagreeing with me, but for the 7 years I WAS a feminist, I got so incredibly fed up of every. single. other. feminist. attacking ME for disagreeing with THEM. There are plenty of good things that feminism does, but this is a dealbreaker for me wrt how I identify myself. There are other issues as well that I'm sure others would consider dealbreakers. Feminism doesn't have the market absolutely cornered on thinking gender equality is good, and even when I was a feminist I thought it was kind of weird that so many feminists seemed to be really adamant that it did.

*Because I don't consider it morally permissible to kill anyone at any stage of life unless in self-defense, such as carrying to term would put the mother's life in extreme danger.

This kind of behaviour among self-professed progressives is exactly what conservatives want. Social justice warriors are their own worst enemy because they're too busy running ideological purity tests and not doing anything meaningful.

an enemy of all other women

Not saying you deserve to die or be raped because no one does but you kind of are an "enemy of all other women" if you don't think a woman deserves control over her own body.

By saying you're "pro-life" does that mean you think abortion should be outlawed? Being pro-choice is not "promoting murder", it's promoting a woman's right to make the decisions about her own body and life. Making the decision to have an abortion is one that's incredibly difficult. No one goes around saying "Yeah, abortion!" and pressuring women to get them if they don't want to.

Do you include mental distress as putting a woman's life in danger? You really think a 13 year old girl who's raped by her father should have to spend the next 9 months of her life depressed and borderline suicidal just because you say so?

I'm sorry but if you genuinely think your views should dictate what every other woman is allowed to do with her own body then you are an enemy of women.

See, this is (a mild version of) what I am talking about. Why is okay for YOU to have feelings about something and I am not allowed to? I don't go around pushing my beliefs on people. I don't go around picketing people. I don't go around shaming people. I don't try to make anyone do anything they don't want to. I merely feel that I cannot CONDONE, which is to say, APPROVE OF OR SUPPORT, the idea of killing when it is not in self-defense. And people like you act like it's a crime and I'm a gender traitor and an evil bitch who deserves punishment because I don't wholeheartedly endorse a type of killing I disagree with. And I have, in fact seen people promote abortion over other alternatives. I've seen it plenty, including people saying that it should always be the FIRST choice and that adoption was a BAD. You hear about that woman who taped her abortion so as to show what a positive thing it was? You think that isn't saying "Yeah, abortion!"? Because I saw a lot of people saying that it was great that she did that because now people can see that abortion is fine and good. If you think that no one goes "Abortion is great!" you...probably don't spend a whole lot of time in feminist spaces. And don't you fucking DARE tell me that I'm an enemy of all women because I don't ENDORSE something I consider harmful, that's legal, and that I couldn't do anything about if I tried, which I don't. Great strawman, that is. "Not saying you deserve to die or be raped or anything"? Great, you're in the fucking minority of feminists who have gone after me on this topic.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA.

I think the anon was fairly polite to you, yet your reaction is to tear their head off like they're the stereotypical dissent-hating baby-murderin' feminazi you claim harass you so much.

Knee jerk. It usually starts like this, then moves into the "kill yourself" no matter how polite I am or they began. And they did, in fact, tell me that I was an enemy of all women and make a couple of lovely strawmen out of me. And please don't accuse me of calling people "feminazis" when a) I didn't; b) it's a very rude term that I don't use; and c) I've said several times that I don't have a problem with feminists as such, only with this issue and the way that I've been treated over it. Also, I have seen a few people say "I'm prochoice but this video crosses the line into disturbing territory," so I am not the only person who found it unsettling or interpreted it as a celebration of abortion (especially considering some of the things she said about it, how "awestruck" she was that all of this could happen.)

The anon made assumptions about her position and called her an enemy of women. That's...not very polite.

Man I'm not even going to touch the "enemy of women" bit. But let's be real here, anon was dropping some very hard questions into ibbity's lap and doing it at least in a calm, reasoned manner.

I don't think there's any excuse for ibbity's reaction.

I just think that tossing in something like "you're an enemy of women" somewhat invalidates the calm, reasonableness of the rest. I think it's really an either/or thing: an interaction is either polite or it's not, and if you're rude during part of that interaction, well...you're not being polite. You don't get to say something rotten just because you prefaced it with something good.

I can kind of understand ibbity's reaction, if it's true that she's gotten threats and been stalked in the past. However, I do agree that she overreacted, and she's also guilty of being very rude.

I'll amend "polite" to "reasoned" because at the very least it wasn't couched in all-caps tumblr-style how dARE U GFSPJFL:SDFJL:JKF I CAN'T.

Basically both participants in that discussion were being nasty to each other, but ibbity absolutely gets the Holy Fuck Calm Down Award.

DA

Bullshit. Anon doesn't get to pussyfoot around with pseudo-calm wording and tone but drop in "gee, sorry, but you ARE an enemy to all women" not once but twice and NOT get ripped a new one if ibbity wants. I'm about as pro-choice as it gets but FUCK that noise. It's behavior like that that's a reason I also, as a woman, refuse to identify myself with the feminist movement at this time. Until feminists collectively get their shit together and get control over the "toe the defined lines OR ELSE" contingents giving them a bad name, count me the fuck out.

Re: Controversial opinions

dethtoll - 2014-05-12 04:49 (UTC) - Expand

See, this is (a mild version of) what I am talking about. Why is okay for YOU to have feelings about something and I am not allowed to? I don't go around pushing my beliefs on people. I don't go around picketing people. I don't go around shaming people. I don't try to make anyone do anything they don't want to. I merely feel that I cannot CONDONE, which is to say, APPROVE OF OR SUPPORT, the idea of killing when it is not in self-defense. And people like you act like it's a crime and I'm a gender traitor and an evil bitch who deserves punishment because I don't wholeheartedly endorse a type of killing I disagree with.

I never said you weren't allowed to have feelings about the subject or that you deserved any type of punishment. I said your opinion shouldn't dictate what other women are allowed to do with their lives.

And I have, in fact seen people promote abortion over other alternatives. I've seen it plenty, including people saying that it should always be the FIRST choice and that adoption was a BAD. You hear about that woman who taped her abortion so as to show what a positive thing it was? You think that isn't saying "Yeah, abortion!"? Because I saw a lot of people saying that it was great that she did that because now people can see that abortion is fine and good. If you think that no one goes "Abortion is great!" you...probably don't spend a whole lot of time in feminist spaces.

I should have clarified that I meant no one sane, because you're right on that. There are definitely the fringe people who think abortion should always be the answer 100% of the time, and I disagree completely with them. The whole point is that it should be the woman's choice. Whether that choice is abortion, adoption or carrying the pregnancy to term and then raising that child, it should be up to that woman, period.

As far as that video, we obviously differ in opinion because I DO think it was a good thing. There's a lot of misinformation about abortion out there and the video is a step towards dispelling the myth that abortion is always a horrible, awful, traumatizing thing when in many cases it honestly is the best choice for that individual woman and her individual situation.

And don't you fucking DARE tell me that I'm an enemy of all women because I don't ENDORSE something I consider harmful, that's legal, and that I couldn't do anything about if I tried, which I don't.

I never said you had to endorse it! You are completely entitled to your own opinion and 100% free to make whatever choices are best for you and your own life. All I said was that you don't get to make those choices for other women.

And you ignored my questions so it's really hard to comment any further on this.

Suicidal = life in danger. I should think that would be obvious. And you assumed that I was out there trying to impose my beliefs on people. I am not. And you told me I am an enemy of all women because I don't think abortion is a good thing, because I consider it an unjustified killing. Nowhere in my comment did I say I try to stop people doing what they see fit with their own bodies. It is entirely possible to think something is bad without becoming a mouth-frothing crazy person who attacks others and tries to force them to live a certain way. Maybe you've met some unpleasant prolifers. I know they're out there. But you don't come into a conversation and open with "Not saying you should be raped, but you are an enemy," project assumptions, tell me my views are invalid, and think that it won't be interpreted as "If you don't support this, you're bad." I admit I was a bit fire-breathing in my reply. That's mainly because most of the people who start out like you begin with the "kill yourself" pretty damn quickly once they realize I'm not about to change my feelings. It was a knee-jerk and I do apologize if I came off as abrasively as I think I probably did.

It is entirely possible to think something is bad without becoming a mouth-frothing crazy person who attacks others

I apologize, too, then, for the enemy comment. That was in response to me thinking (wrongly, apparently) that you wanted to outlaw abortion for everyone else, not just that you were personally against it. Usually when I see someone describe themselves as pro-life that's the case, so that's what I was responding to.

I have no problem with you having a personal opinion that's different than mine. You're entitled to that just as anyone else is, and anyone who tells you you should be raped or to kill yourself is just an asshole.

Thanks, I admit I got a bit defensive there. Guess we both hit the other's sore spot. But we can definitely both agree that people should be free to feel how they like. Common ground ftw lol.

:)

Here's a tip, don't call yourself 'pro-life' if you don't want to be associated with the movement to make abortion illegal. Because that is basically what that term entails. Just say 'I don't believe abortion is a moral choice to make' or such.

This is kinda similar to the feminism thread going on above...there's a label that refers to a philosophy, then there are associations with particular groups...

fwiw, I'm "pro-life" in the most basic sense but I don't think it should be illegal. (by "the most basic sense" I basically mean: all people at any stage deserve to live. I DO think it's a nuanced issue. And I don't really want to get into it. Just offering my POV. I'm am not pro-legalizing-abortion, but I don't think abortion is usually the moral choice.)

I'm am not pro-legalizing-abortion

You do realize it's already legal, right?

Based on the rest of that sentence, I'm going to guess that they meant "I'm not pro-illegalizing-abortion."

Yes. That is what I meant. Horrible typo. x.x

*facepalm* EPIC typo. Augh. That's so embarrassing.

Meant to say I don't think it should be de-legalized.

Sorry ;-;

Not necessarily. I (nayrt) consider myself egalitarian, not feminist, primarily because I'm pro-life* and this is not permitted if you want to be a feminist.

I hear you, sister! I'm in the same boat. And right now, I don't have the energy for the protracted discussion I see followed your post, so I'll just leave it at that. But I totally get what you're saying, and I feel the same, down to the point of preferring to tell people that I "believe in equality" vs labelling myself as a feminist.