fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2736 ]

[ SECRET POST #2736 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2736 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Book!Thorin was meant to be as unlikable as possible so people wouldn't really give a shit when he died. They weren't meant to be characters except Bilbo, they were just metaphors for things. You weren't ever supposed to feel positive emotions for him.

I disagree. I dislike much of The Hobbit, the book, but Thorin's deathbed farewell to Bilbo was not one of them and I find it hard to believe that scene would have been written with such emotional intensity if we were never meant to care.

What intensity? It was two paragraphs. The whole point of it was for Tolkien to tell the reader the message of the Hobbit. It's not an emotional character moment.

Again, have to disagree. It was an emotional character moment for Bilbo, whom we are supposed to sympathetize with.

DA - We're meant to care after Thorin's death is a foregone conclusion, though. It almost feels like sloppy writing, but he wasn't a terribly sympathetic character for a great deal of the book, especially the conflict with Bilbo and the Arkenstone. But this is Tolkien and a death like this must be noble and therefore Thorin needs to be redeemed. See: Boromir.

Yeah. Don't get me wrong, in the movies for both characters I think you're absolutely meant to care and I'd argue they're supposed to be sympathetic. In the books they're just literary devices.

Maybe I read this incorrectly, but f you're making a "by the same token" argument and saying that book!Boromir wasn't meant to be sympathetic in anyway, then I'm not sure I agree.

Thorin is the first in a long line of Tolkien characters that epitomize a recurring archetype. They're all cautionary stories about why placing too much value in riches, pride, and the works of your own hands over all else can lead to great downfalls. Their deeds may vary but these guys are often skilled, noble, and brave leaders of their people who have suffered in some great way. They are foil for characters like Bilbo, but despite their moral ambiguity, they are ultimately sympathetic.

Perhaps all of that isn't clear in The Hobbit -- because it (and Thorin, by extension) was the prototype. Tolkien hadn't yet even figured out all the things he wanted to do with the Dwarven race at the time of writing the book, which is why Dwarves in later works are portrayed so much more heroically. But I can at least argue that, whether or not Tolkien meant for readers to find Thorin sympathetic in The Hobbit or not -- he certainly felt that way about the character in later years. The Appendix to LOTR gave us more on Thorin's history, fleshing out his past and motivation and generally making him more consistent with the image of the Dwarves that these later works had painted -- this is what Jackson & co drew from to create the character from the film.

You might argue that we should consider The Hobbit on its own instead of pointing to later materials, but I like to view characters in light of the legendarium in entirety. And besides, it's not like this argument about whether we're meant to care will ever be substantiated by a claim from the Professor anyway; if one reader finds Thorin sympathetic and another doesn't, that is that.

No, sorry for the misunderstanding. Boromir was a more fleshed out character (and arguably more sympathetic because of this) than Thorin is, but what strikes me is the whole good intentions/warped desires + death/redemption parallels in their stories. Thorin's arc isn't as complex, which, fair enough, The Hobbit isn't as complex as LOTR. I don't doubt he's meant to be sympathetic, but I'm not sure he comes off that way for large portions of the book. Boromir doesn't really have this issue, despite his moment of weakness re: the One Ring.

I have to say that's one of my least favorite archetypes. Characters who just serve as cautionary tales without hearing their side, especially when they're used to push for the message the writer wants.

I think Boromir and Thorin are both more *easy* to sympathise with in the films, but I think their side is shown in the books. I mean that's why Boromir has a crap dad and a neglected brother.

Oops?

Not sure what I'm supposed to say to this...

Even if that was Tolkien's intention, Thorin was still an enjoyable character to me. Not saying he was the most likable character, but I found him interesting. Even if his death scene was more about a message than, well, him, it still moved me in a massive way, and I'll always associate positive feelings towards his character because of it.

His story is tragic and unfortunate and I think most people could learn from his greed, and so even if people don't like him, well...I wouldn't say he's as unlikable as possible. He's a flawed character for sure, but people are flawed too, and that's partially why we connect with characters.

When authors make characters devices for some message or cautionary tales that's not interesting. Maybe it works for kids' books but the flaws aren't even interesting in the way that actually good flawed characters are. If you look at it from the technical perspective you'd know you're not supposed to give a shit about him beyond him and other characters being used to flesh out Bilbo.

Again, I'm not sure what you want me to say about this.

I realize that the book isn't perfect (the majority of the characters weren't interesting enough for that) but even if I was to acknowledge, "Welp, I'm not supposed to care about these characters" that isn't going to make me stop caring about said characters.

I fail at reading, I suppose. (And am okay with this.)

And you know this for certain because... you're, what, telepathically linked to Tolkien from beyond the grave and know with certainty he believes we're all scrubs for daring to sympathize with his literary devices? I could make the same technical argument and say that Tolkien did mean for us to sympathize with Thorin but couldn't manage it because he was bad at writing nuanced characters. Hey who knows?

I think Tolkien is very good at showing that all sorts of people can be corrupted by greed for money or power, and not just 'evil' ones while the good ones escape. The difference is that the 'good' ones happen to have other qualities that help them overcome it, but the ones who do succumb have factors that have led them down that road as well.

hey weren't meant to be characters except Bilbo, they were just metaphors for things.

Ok, I know what I said above about modern and classical characters but that's a massive oversimplification. And despite what I said above I was *devestated* as a child when Thorin died. (Mainly because it was the first time I'd read a book where a main character did.)

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[ SECRET POST #2736 ]

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Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now