fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2742 ]

[ SECRET POST #2742 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2742 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 094 secrets from Secret Submission Post #392.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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...it's Sleepy fucking Hollow and people think it shouldn't be about Ichabod? Are you kidding me?

lmao, yea, this is confusing me too. If you don't like Ichabod then alright, but...it's to be expected that he would be included. Plus, Abbie is just as important, has just as much screen-time (I think she does, anyway) and is just as great a character, so it's not like he's the entire focus.

I've only watched half an episode, so maybe I'm missing something, but why does Ichabod have to be the protagonist? The reason the show is called Sleepy Hollow is because it revolves around a headless horseman; in almost every other respect, it bears no resemblance to the Washington Irving story. Changing the protagonist would've been small potatoes when compared to sweeping changes like setting the show in the present and making the headless horseman an actual supernatural entity rather than a mean prank.

The original story isn't just about the headless horseman; it's about Ichabod Crane. One could argue that it's more about Ichabod than about the horseman. If one were to remove him, then one might as well not call it Sleepy Hollow at all.

Also, the premise of the show is that the story was based on something real, and it's that "something real" that's causing problems.

AYRT

The original story isn't just about the headless horseman; it's about Ichabod Crane. One could argue that it's more about Ichabod than about the horseman. If one were to remove him, then one might as well not call it Sleepy Hollow at all.

The original story's about a cowardly, unattractive, and completely unlikable schoolmaster. In essence, Ichabod Crane has been removed from the story; he's just been replaced with some dude who shares his name.

And if you can't recognize that the headless horseman is what makes "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" unique and memorable to the overwhelming majority of its readers, then I'm afraid there's no help for you.

...wow.

Why are you being a dick about this?

You underestimate how well-known Ichabod is.

It says something that nearly every adaptation, recap or sequel of SH that I've seen, Ichabod Crane or one of his descendants has a role to play. Even the 'Are You Afraid of the Dark' episode had a proxy for Ichabod as the main character and even runs into his ghost.

AYRT

You underestimate how well-known Ichabod is.

It says something that nearly every adaptation, recap or sequel of SH that I've seen, Ichabod Crane or one of his descendants has a role to play.

That's possible, though I'm very interested in your use of the phrase "nearly every." Does that mean that you've seen one or more adaptations that don't include Ichabod? And can you recall any that include Ichabod but don't include a headless horseman?

The Fables graphic novels (and spin-off game) feature Ichabod Crane as an important character, but I think there is no headless horseman.

AYRT

According to Wikipedia, the headless horseman appears in the Jack of Fables spin-off, but (as you've pointed out) not in the main series.

I say 'nearly every' because I don't know of every adaptation in existence. But every one that I've seen has.

AYRT

Ah, okay. Fair enough!

You may not have a very high opinion of the character, but you're wrong in believing that he himself was not memorable. You're also wrong to attach the importance of the character to the opinion of the story's readers; the tale is a part of cultural memory at this point, and most people who know of it haven't ever read it. They know only that it's about a man named Ichabod Crane and his encounter with a headless horseman.

Given the premise of the show, which revolves around the idea that the story was true but that it got a bit wrong, I think it makes sense that it would include both Ichabod and the horseman, since they're both central figures.

AYRT

You're also wrong to attach the importance of the character to the opinion of the story's readers; the tale is a part of cultural memory at this point, and most people who know of it haven't ever read it. They know only that it's about a man named Ichabod Crane and his encounter with a headless horseman.

Well, I was responding to a comment that focused largely on the original story, which is why I was talking about its readers.

I do agree with your premise that the story is cultural memory, though I'm still unpersuaded that Ichabod Crane is as widely known as the headless horseman is. As one not-at-all definitive example, a Google search for "Sleepy Hollow" + "Ichabod Crane" returns 453,000 results, while a Google search for "Sleepy Hollow" + "headless horseman" returns 784,000 results. Of course, it's impossible to know what those numbers might have been before the show started, but I do think it's rather suggestive, nevertheless.

Ah, but searching "Sleepy Hollow" + "Ichabod" returns 664,000 results, suggesting that it's the last name that people are less likely to remember. And yes, that's still less than "Sleepy Hollow" + "headless horseman," but the gap is significantly shortened.

This may be a case of having to agree to disagree. I think you'll find there are a lot of people who think that Sleepy Hollow isn't Sleepy Hollow without Ichabod (and the responses here demonstrate that to a certain extent), even if there are those who think that it's only necessary to include the horseman.

AYRT

Ah, but searching "Sleepy Hollow" + "Ichabod" returns 664,000 results, suggesting that it's the last name that people are less likely to remember.

I suspect that the popularity of "Sleepy Hollow" + "Ichabod" is overwhelmingly due to the TV show; it's not necessarily that people don't remember the character's full name, but that they don't feel the need to type the whole thing out every time they post an episode reaction post or an Ichabod/Abbie fic or whatever. But that's pure speculation on my part, and there's really no way to know for sure.

Agreeing to disagree sounds like a good plan.

But in Sleepy Hollow he needs to be in it because almost all of the supernatural elements is rooted in his origin.

SPOILERS:

The Headless Horseman was his friend. He became the Headless Horseman in order to get revenge on Crane. Crane's wife bound him to the Horseman and when one awoke the other did. One of the other Horseman is his son. The very reason why the Apocalypse is coming is because of Crane's circle of family, friends and enemies.

You take him out, you don't have a story.

AYRT

You take him out, you don't have a story.

No, if you take him out, you have a different story.

I think this will be the last comment I make on the subject, because this thread is going around in circles a bit. So, one last time: all of the things you cited as central to the "story" are unique to the TV series and have nothing to do with the original story by Washington Irving. In Irving's story, the headless horseman isn't supernatural, Ichabod doesn't have a wife or son (or really any family and friends at all, if I'm remembering correctly; he courts Katrina, but in the end it turns out she was just using him to make the guy she was actually interested in jealous), and there's no Apocalypse. Also, Ichabod Crane has a completely different characterization than he does in the TV show.

The TV show is simply not a faithful adaptation in any way. And that's fine! It doesn't have to be. But that means that Ichabod Crane isn't required to be the protagonist either. The TV writers chose to make him the protagonist, but they could equally have chosen to tell a not-too-different story in which Katrina Van Tassel or Brom Bones was the protagonist, or to tell a very different story about a headless horseman in Sleepy Hollow in which none of those three characters was the protagonist.

No, if you take him out, you have a different story.

But that's exactly the point. If you take him out, you don't have Sleepy Hollow. You have a different story that ISN'T the Sleepy Hollow we have been given. Like if you took Mulder and Scully out from the X-Files you would have a show about weird cases but you wouldn't have the X-Files because the characters make up the X-Files. Crane makes up Sleepy Hollow. And I like the story that I have seen with him and the rest. I don't want a different story.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-07-07 01:13 (UTC) - Expand

He doesn't *have* to be but he is and the show at this point is structured around him.

AYRT

And I'm not disputing that. I'm just disagreeing with the above anon who seems to believe that making Ichabod the protagonist is the only possible way the show could have been written.

If you don't structure the show around Ichabod, it becomes just another supernatural/Grimm/Buffy/whatever episode stretched into a whole series. There are actually a lot of headless horsemen around in folk lore. You need Ichabod Crane to make a random headless horseman THE Headless Horseman.

AYRT

You need Ichabod Crane to make a random headless horseman THE Headless Horseman.

Not quite. You need Ichabod Crane or you need Sleepy Hollow. The show chose to have both, but they could've kept the setting and lost Ichabod, and the headless horseman's identity would've remained perfectly clear.

I get where you're coming from, but you'd have a stronger argument if this show were about the actual Washington Irving story instead of being a show that has some elements and character names from the Washington Irving story, but is essentially a different story.

^ my thoughts exactly

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