[ SECRET POST #2767 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2767 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Work. Again. Sorry if response time is slow. :(

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 011 secrets from Secret Submission Post #394.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big (also random unsubstantiated claims about famous people) ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[lyriel]

"Social intelligence is actually more useful in some situations than book smarts. I wish I had more of it, actually."

I think this exact same discussion happened here on FS a few months ago, but here's my take on it:

Penny *doesn't* have good social skills or emotional intelligence. She doesn't. She deals with minor conflicts by kicking and punching people, she's unable to support herself without asking Leonard or Sheldon for a large loan, she seems to barely be performing the basic functions of everyday life: paying for food, cleaning her apartment, paying bills, maintaining her car. It doesn't take a math geek to do those things; your average sixteen-year-old could do them.

**She depends on men for both emotional and financial support.** Is that the M.O. of a socially adept, emotionally healthy, savvy type of person who is skilled at playing the game of life?

Prior to the introduction of Amy and Bernadette, Penny seemed to have no real friends or confidantes whatsoever. Once or twice, she had groups of people come over to watch a ballgame and drink, but we never, ever saw her have meaningful one-on-one interaction with a close friend.

This show keeps on telling us that Penny is the psychologically normal one, but what we're shown is that she's rude, angry, lazy, aggressive, irresponsible, violent, and cruel.

The guys have issues, certainly, but Penny's the only one who is dysfunctional.

The idea that's she's "the relatable one" or that she's the designated audience self-insert boggles my mind.

Penny is one of the least likeable TV protagonists I've ever seen. And I say that as someone who *likes* the Seinfeld crew.

The idea that Penny "introduces the nerds to the real world" is ridiculous and offensive. Drinking, fighting, and being intentionally under-employed are "the real world"? All of the characters on this show have done questionable stuff, but the guys are seeking knowledge and contributing to society while Penny is breaking people's faces and refusing to pay for a plate of noodles.

If Penny has good social skills, then where are her other friends, why doesn't she use those skills to improve her own circumstances, and why does "resentful and grouchy" seem to be her default mood?

[blitzwing]

Hey. Waitresses contribute to society.

[lyriel]

Yes, they certainly do. I am not putting down people who work in retail, at all. Every job is harder and more complex than it looks from the outside. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with spending your whole life in retail if that is your personal choice.

The point is not that Penny is a waitress, or that she didn't go to college, or that she's not into math and science. That's not the point, at all. The point is that the TBBT writers are guilty of "telling, not showing" with this character. We're told that Penny has good social skills but we're shown the opposite. She seems hostile towards almost everyone she encounters. She had no friends until more female characters were added for that specific purpose.

All of the characters on this show have their share of negative qualities, but we, the audience, are told that the nerds are freaks and Penny is "normal." That's the problem.

If Penny is such a social maven, why does she spend 24/7 with the guys and depend on them for almost everything? She's no better than they are, at all. Her neuroses just take a different form.

She's one of the most unpleasant characters I've ever seen, but this show expects us to believe she's "the normal one."

[blitzwing]

She does have friends, pre-Bernadette and pre-Amy. We're told that she's going out dancing with some in one episode (like you said, the show tells a lot of information, rather than showing it), not to mention the ones at the parties and ballgame-watches.

It's just that, unlike the guys, we really only are shown her life re: the guys of the show. Before the later seasons with the added female characters, the guys had plenty of scenes sans Penny, but Penny had almost none sans-guys, and when she *was* shown alone, it was usually directly before running over to the other apartment (and the guys).

I don't think we can surmise that Penny "had no friends" early on at all, when the canon was telling us otherwise, even if it wasn't showing us so.

[lyriel]

You have a point, there. I think the key issue is that the writing is inconsistent. And the "telling, not showing" makes things pretty unconvincing for the viewer, since TV is a visual medium.

My primary beef with this issue is that we're told the guys are "pathetic losers" and Penny is normal, even though the guys are so very, very accomplished and successful. Do they have some negative traits? Yes, sure, of course. But she's not any better than they are. She's not. She doesn't represent a happy, psychologically healthy, well-adjusted life, which is apparently what the show wants us to believe. Watching Star Trek makes you a loser, drinking and fighting are cool and socially acceptable. That's the message, here.

[lyriel]

Also, even though she ostensibly makes her living as a waitress, there are at least two or three canon references to Penny borrowing large amounts of money from Sheldon or Leonard, and even Leonard paying her rent. She also seems to be relying on credit cards, a fair bit.

She's a waitress in theory, but she doesn't actually seem to be self-supporting, or at least not consistently so.

[blitzwing]

Um. Wow. I don't even know what to say to this comment.

Waitresses make like, $3 an hour. No crap they struggle financially. That's not really their fault or an indication that they're failures.

A majority of people in food service and retail have to rely on government assistance because their employers vastly underpay them what they deserve, even though they work just as much as anyone.

I do find it offensive that you consider someone only a worker at their job "in theory" if they have to rely on credit, friends' loans, or any other kind of outside assistance once in a while. What the hell?

[lyriel]

And because of those issues, people with low-paying jobs often live with roommates or with family, etc. Why is Penny choosing to live alone, in a relatively nice apartment, in the same building with people who are Phd. university employees?

Don't turn this into some anti-worker thing. I didn't go there, you did. I've had a wide variety of jobs in my life, and many of them were retail, but I managed to not demand free Thai-food from random guys across the hall, nor did I literally spend my rent money on hot shoes, which Penny canonically does.

Penny chooses not to live within her means, and then takes advantage of these naive, easily-manipulated nerdy guys. Why are people so full of excuses for her?

"Friends helping friends during tough times" is not the same thing as "I knowingly and intentionally spent my rent money on hot shoes." It's not the same, at all.

I acknowledge that all of the characters have negative traits, but what is likeable about her? I don't see it. The positive qualities that people attribute to her are pure headcanon/fanon.

[blitzwing]

It doesn't need to be turned into "some anti-worker thing". It already is, although really it's just disgustingly classist. When you imply that people aren't real plumbers or are only a "retail worker in theory" because they've taken assistance, you are being classist.

It doesn't matter what you have done or Penny has done, you made a statement that had nasty implications against low-wage workers.

You hate Penny, fine. I don't give a shit. But don't, in your quest for justifications to hate Penny, say shit that goes against real low-wage workers.

[lyriel]

Nowhere did I say that it's not okay for people to receive assistance, any kind of assistance, whether from the government or from friends or from other sources. Those are perfectly legit things.

Mooching off some emotionally-naive nerdy guys who have a crush on you is not at all the same thing as collecting welfare or collecting unemployment benefits, or friends mutually helping friends. Penny openly states "I'm cute, I get by."

You're talking about people who face financial struggles through no fault of their own. I'm talking about a fictional character who faces financial struggles through knowingly and intentionally making poor decisions, and then uses her sex appeal as a means to mooch off people who are socially naive and unlikely to say no.

I did not write some anti-welfare screed, here. I don't know where you're getting that.

You haven't answered any of my questions as to why people are so quick to make excuses for Penny, while judging the other characters pretty harshly and holding them to a higher standard of behavior.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree 100%. Geez, this argument. Penny is not financially responsible, the end.

[(Anonymous)]

I have no idea why this single anon posting twice is giving you such shit. This is completely accurate. Penny isn't a poor struggling waitress trying her best to get by. She's a mooch who blows paychecks on expensive shoes, and then gets Leonard to pay her rent. Are these replies trolling or what? Penny doesn't need any sympathy.

[(Anonymous)]

this single anon posting twice

You trying to give everyone a hint about you posting twice?

[lyriel]

"you are being classist."

I'm heartbroken. My day is ruined.

[lyriel]

"It doesn't need to be turned into "some anti-worker thing". It already is, although really it's just disgustingly classist."

I am talking specifically about this fictional character. More to the point, I am questioning why the show's writers try to present this character as being likeable, and then consistently show her behaving in an unlikeable manner.

You are going off on some emotion-fueled tangent, full of righteous anger because I supposedly put people down for using welfare or other forms of assistance, which I absolutely and categorically did not.

It is perfectly legitimate to need and use assistance, whether that assistance is formal (the government) or informal (friends and family.)

But a fictional character who uses her looks to get random guys to pay her bills is not an admirable character. That's the point, here.

[lyriel]

When someone starts getting angry and emotional and talking about how "offended" they are, that's a sure sign they have no actual answers to the questions being asked.

You haven't refuted any of my points. Not one.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

That's probably because you seem quite batshit and are, indeed, a classist fuckwad. Go ahead and make a dozen more replies/posts.

[(Anonymous)]

Why on earth did you make so many replies? You obviously know how to use the "edit" button.

[world_eater]

"Angry and emotional" as opposed to... whatever it is you're doing here?

[(Anonymous)]

You know, it's funny because people say we hate the traits in others that we ourselves have.

You come across as hostile and socially inept...just like Penny! :)

[lyriel]

"I do find it offensive."

Congratulations, here's a cookie.

[blitzwing]

Uh-huh.

"Someone attempted honest communication with me, better mock them!"

You're looking like a real winner. And that is sarcasm.

[(Anonymous)]

You're right, waitresses get shitty wages. I know, I've been a waitress. But why does Penny live in an enormous single apartment, blow her paychecks on shoes, and mooch off her friends? I don't know why you're getting so royally defensive about this. I'm all for waitresses being paid more. But that doesn't alter Penny's situation. She is financially irresponsible. She isn't able to support herself, not necessarily because of her job and crappy wage, but because she isn't budgeting or being realistic about what she can afford.

And Penny is almost never shown having any drive to improve her financial situation - working for promotions, taking on extra work, getting a roommate, whatever. At least if she were acting, she would be working toward her dream and expressing some kind of ambition, but she doesn't have any ambition. She is a mooch and financially irresponsible.

Why you think this is "classist" is truly boggling. Have you not seen the show at all? Penny's job as a waitress doesn't mean she is immune to any sort of criticism.

[(Anonymous)]

I know, I've been a waitress. But why does Penny live in an enormous single apartment, blow her paychecks on shoes, and mooch off her friends?

because it's a fucking tv show and not something that supposed to closely resemble real life? almost every character on US tv lives above their means.

it's obvious you fandom fuckers aren't the target audience of this show if you people are seriously debating and analyzing Penny's financial situation and intelligence.