fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2783 ]

[ SECRET POST #2783 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2783 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 069 secrets from Secret Submission Post #398.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - random pattern image ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So... Is terry pratchett a misogynist? I would have fought to the death anyone who suggested this before, but reading that comment in secret 1 about how all his attractive women are constantly mentioned as being attractive, to the point that it's the only significant aspect to their character... that shit isn't on, and it IS something he is kinda guilty of.

So inspite of my previous love for the man, I think I have to say I'm leaning towards the idea that yes, he might well be a misogynist. This is not good news. I loved the discworld books...

What? I just finished a few of them, and I don't remember it that way at all. Is this something from his more recent books?

Jim Butcher, on the other hand...I do notice that "all female characters are constantly described as attractive" thing in the Dresden Files.

Butcher is downright creepy about it sometimes, especially with Molly.

Yeah, that's why I don't read the dresden files. Packed full of male gaze and seriously gross objectification.

I don't know how the male gaze bullshit in discworld slipped past me. Maybe because I read it at a younger less enlightened point in my life.

What book did you read? Any with Angua? Because that, now that I think about it, should have been clue 1. She get's nude, as a human, in every book she is in. I dismiss GOT for this shit, but for some reason I've been giving PTerry a free pass for decades.

Jim Butcher, on the other hand...I do notice that "all female characters are constantly described as attractive" thing in the Dresden Files.

Yeah, that does get tiresome after awhile, and I say that as a fan of the series.

That sounds more like he's sexist, not misogynist. There's a difference in magnitude, though it's still unfair.

I don't think he's a misogynist. I think he's a product of his generation, in that he is enamoured of attractive women and not afraid to say so - and that colours his writing. He was even quoted once as saying that many things encourage him to go on living - sunny days, a good beer, seeing a pretty young woman.

Yeah, it's not an ideal attitude to have, but he otherwise writes pretty diverse female characters. So, I wouldn't describe it as misogyny so much as the weakspot of an otherwise damn good writer.

SA My comment sounds like I'm apologising for the inherent sexism of PTerry's generation. I guess I kind of am? I just don't think he's that bad, considering some of the toxic attitudes you get from older men. Also, he's got Alzheimer's, so it seems a little late in the game to worry about it.

There's nothing wrong with any of that. I'm sorry, but there's not. None of those are bad things in and of themselves.

He's enamored of attractive women and not afraid to say so - what horror!

quick question before I respond: Are you male?

Re: terry pratchett misogyny

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-17 14:49 (UTC) - Expand

Re: terry pratchett misogyny

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-17 17:48 (UTC) - Expand

Sexism and misogyny are not the same thing, so my money's on no.

I disagree. Firstly, he writes women on a wide spectrum of attractiveness, and the 'prettier' ones are not glorified or treated better. And I find them to be just as roundly developed as the, what, less beautiful ones. I mean, look at Angua. She's beautiful, but she's not described in terms anymore glowing than Carrot, she has a complicated back story and personality, and I always thought she was one of the more fleshed out characters in the Watch books. Adora Belle is defined by her prickliness and her care for the Golems, not her looks. And etc etc etc.

I'd like to hear who has beauty as 'the only significant aspect to their character' because I have never, ever seen that to be the case.

I'd like to hear who has beauty as 'the only significant aspect to their character' because I have never, ever seen that to be the case.

The Christine-analogue from Maskerade. (Was her name Christine in that book, too? Don't have it handy to double-check.) Only one I can think of offhand, and she's more a plot device/direct parody than a character.

Re: terry pratchett misogyny

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-16 23:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: terry pratchett misogyny

peablossom - 2014-08-16 23:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: terry pratchett misogyny

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-16 23:53 (UTC) - Expand

Yes. This.

Better late than never. I've been boycotting his drivel since the early 2000's

This says more about you than Terry Pratchett, tbh.

I'll bite. Why?

My primary memory of Dearheart is that she's a chain smoker, sarcastic, and dedicated to the Golem Trust. Similarly, Angua got one of the better secondary character arcs of the Watch.

I can't think of a single character where their attractiveness was the character's sole defining trait. I remember the not-Christine in Maskerade as naive and exclamation points!! and Juliet from Unseen Academicals as more insightful and clever than Glenda gave her credit for.

No, wait, I guess I can give you Tawnee, from Thud! There wasn't too much to her character.

I felt that he was too SJWy in Monsrous Regiment.
And re the question above the heroine with attractiveness as a main characteristic is Ptuty(? or something simmilar) from Pyramids.

Who has their attractiveness as the only significant aspect of their character? No, seriously. Even Conina, all the way back in Colour of Magic, had a lot more going on than that. The only characters who are purely defined by their looks are usually specific parodies of particularly vanity-obsessed archetypes, like Christine in Masquerade. Everyone else has actual story, backstory, plot and personal demons to face, and almost nobody is there purely to look pretty.

He also has a very wide range of female characters, not just physically but in terms of personalities and fields of expertise. We've got watchmen, soldiers, heroes, cooks, caretakers, witches, queens, governesses, civil rights activists, political manipulators (including one who trained Vetinari), reporters, forensic alchemists, actresses, military leaders, dragon tamers, seamstresses (of either kind), beggars, seers, professional church goers (although that's probably more of a hobby of Mrs Cake's than anything), revolutionaries, medics, prophets, professional villains, valkyries, musicians, eldritch abominations ... I mean, we're not short of variety.

There's also the fact that romance and stereotypical attractiveness aren't one-to-one on the Disc either. Considering that one of the longest-standing and happiest marriages in the books is between a foul-tempered skinny watchman and a woman who was bald, armoured, roughly spherical, stinking of dragon and terrifyingly sexual when he first met her (alright, she was talking about breeding dragons, but still). There's no looking down on women for having sex with anyone and everyone that takes their fancy - given that Nanny Ogg is the undisputed matriarch and possibly de facto ruler of a mountain kingdom by dint of a very adventurous youth, arguably it's even rewarded. There's a canon lesbian couple which, while the source of a lot of confusion for several characters, isn't frowned on or disapproved of at all, and also isn't the only facet of the characters involved (tragic backstory, pyromania, psychological damage of abuse, and surprisingly competent soldiering being the other significant ones).

There's also no looking down on professional sex workers, either, since the seamstresses guild is genuinely portrayed as not only one of the most powerful guilds going, it's also repeatedly been shown to be on the side of heroes (or well, Vetinari and the Watch, but in Ankh-Morpork it's arguably the same thing), up to and including being a founding element of a revolutionary 'republic' in the backstory, and having two of the coolest enforcers in the books (the Agony Aunts rock).

I just ... don't think that an accusation of misogyny holds well for the Disc? Women get to do everything and be everything, even things usually associated with men, and they get to do it while being every size, shape, species, personality type and sexual orientation on the Disc.

ALL of what you said. Discworld women rock.

Well said, thank you.

Very well said. Of all the fantasy authors I've read, Terry Pratchett is one of the last I'd ever label as misogynist.

You can still love someone's work even if they're flawed as a person, and you can still love work that has problematic elements in it.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only