[ SECRET POST #2795 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2795 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Law & Order: Criminal Intent]


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03.
[Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers]


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04.
[Jeeves and Wooster]


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05.
[Yahtzee/Zero Punctuation]


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06.
[Markiplier]


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07.
[Jackie Chan Adventures]


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08.
[The Parent Trap]


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09.
[Alexander]


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10.
[Starsky and Hutch]











Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 012 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[peablossom]

People seriously thought he was white at any point?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. I remember rolling my eyes at this ask, because the person who sent Gaiman the question seemed really sure that Shadow hadn't been described as non-white until the end of the book. Lots of people pointed out that no, it's obvious in chapter one unless you're really not paying any attention at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Where is it indicated in the first chapter? I'm asking just for clarity, because I don't have a copy to hand, and I haven't read it in many, many years and don't remember how it's described either way.

[likeadeuce]

To be totally honest, I just re-read this book recently and I *still* didn't see the 'obvious' description. I am not suggesting that people who got that out of the text are wrong but I feel like I'm being kind of thick about this. I mean, Gaiman's prose is sort of dense and allusive, I don't think missing outon it is a very good social justice litmus test.

[peablossom]

A guard comments on his ethnicity in the first chapter and describes him with several racial slurs.

[(Anonymous)]

In my paperback copy, page 12 is the first hint that Shadow is maybe not white:

"I don't get you, Shadow," said Wilson, as they walked.
"What's not to get, sir?"
"You. You're too fucking quiet. Too polite. You wait like the old guys but you're what? Twenty-five? Twenty-eight?"
"Thirty-two, sir."
"And what are you? A spic? A gypsy?"
"Not that I know of, sir. Maybe."
"Maybe you got nigger blood in you. You got bigger blood in you, Shadow?"
"Could be, sir." Shadow stood tall and looked ahead, and concentrated on not allowing himself to be riled by this man.

It's not too in your face about it, but Gaiman's clearly trying to sneak in physical description of his main character via the interrogation with the prison guard.

[(Anonymous)]

So the first things he asks is: are you varying types of european-white? Then he asks, are you part black?

But the first thing he assumes is latin and people are surprised readers aren't going "I KNEW IT, HE'S BLACK"?

@_@

[(Anonymous)]

I think that translators might be biased OR not knowledable in slurs OR not wanting to translate them in order to be politically correct.

I've read the Polish version and I remember Shadow's skin tone description somewhere in the end when he had been talking with Mr. Wednesday. In the beginning he only had been given black hair.

Though, no excuses for English version (neither the Polish one I've read as it's mentioned he's black).

[(Anonymous)]

As I said further down, I always assumed that this particular scene was yet another way to set up Shadow as a character that people have trouble grasping.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, all the stuff about shadows skin colour, in the start of, and most of the book, comes from people (the first of which being a racist prison guard) all /ASKING/ (Implying the people physically looking at him aren't sure enough about his skin colour to definitive state it) if he has any gypse in him, if he has an native American in him, etc some one actually used the "cream and coffee" expression in front of him about someone else.
All indications of his skin colour are from characters in the book, and none of them can say with any certainty he is not white.

I think I could forgive someone for thinking he is white.

[(Anonymous)]

getting asked "what" you are is a pretty distinctive experience of mixed raced people though- and his heritage is a plot point, right?

if he was default white nobody would bother asking

[(Anonymous)]

that's still pretty far from "he is obviously and unambiguously stated to be non-white in the first chapter"

[(Anonymous)]

My husband is "default white" but also fairly swarthy and generically ethnic-looking. His dad is Scandanavian and his mom is Austrian. Go figure.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, it's his white heratige that is the plot point.

Also, they don't ask "what" they ask "If" that's how I read it.
That is not unique to mixed race. I recall back when I was 7/8, a teacher asked "Are you an arab?" because, I assume, I tanned like a motherfucker and stayed tanned most the year. My response back then was much the same as shadows "I dunno". I later that day learned what the teacher was asking. I am not, in case you are wondering, an arab. But the teacher asked because it was ambiguous. my ambiguous ethnicity was in fact white.
and as shadows ethnicity was the same level of ambiguous, there is no reason to assume he is POC or PONC

[kallanda_lee]

I'm "default white" and I get asked quite a lot actually. A lot also depends on your facial structure, accent and language, he way you carry yourself, the way you dress etc.

Now I agree that in a work of fiction that very likely indicated the author wanted to say something about heritage.

But to the reader, that experience does not necessarily need to convey "he's mixed race".

[(Anonymous)]

"All indications of his skin colour are from characters in the book, and none of them can say with any certainty he is not white."

That's not really what I take away from your examples, though. If people are asking, they're asking because they're pretty sure he's something other than white, otherwise they wouldn't be asking. In fact, the examples you cite suggest that if they're sure of anything, they're certain he's not white and they're trying to ascertain what that "other" is.

[(Anonymous)]

No one is confused by an obviously white person. If someone has to stop and think about what ethnicity/race you might be, you're not white.

[(Anonymous)]

This hurts me as a writer. Why would you keep bringing up his race unless it's important? Why wouldn't he just answer unless it was important? Who answers "maybe" if the answer is "I'm white"?

To assume he's white isn't just defaulting to white, it's also ignoring red flags from the writer.

[(Anonymous)]

I think I could forgive someone for thinking he is white.

So, you think it's okay to just assume that someone is white until proven otherwise?

[(Anonymous)]

White girl here. No one ever EVER asks me if I have any gypsy/Native American/black in me.

Also, previously married to a pale skinned man who WAS part African-American, but because of his pale skin he was never asked either.

People ONLY ask you those questions if you are dark-skinned.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, you could get there pretty easily by a couple different routes:

(1) A really half-hearted reading of the book.
(2) A fairly thorough reading of the book and an assumption that Odin's son is white.

[peablossom]

But Odin provided only half of his parentage. And his mother was described as black. And you don't even know he's Odin's son until the very end, right? (It's been a while since I read this book)

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it depends on what you pick up on first, I would guess. I figured out pretty early on he was Odin's son. His mother is described as some kind of interpreter or something in Europe, right? And then it's mentioned somewhere that she had sickle cell anemia, which might lead one to believe she was of African descent, but it's not always the case.

[(Anonymous)]

You're surprised? People actually got angry about Rue's actress being black.

[(Anonymous)]

I just immediately assumed he was Native American cos his name was "Shadow", but that might just be racism covered up by fortuitous guessing lol