[ SECRET POST #2795 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2795 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Law & Order: Criminal Intent]


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03.
[Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers]


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04.
[Jeeves and Wooster]


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05.
[Yahtzee/Zero Punctuation]


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06.
[Markiplier]


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07.
[Jackie Chan Adventures]


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08.
[The Parent Trap]


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09.
[Alexander]


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10.
[Starsky and Hutch]











Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 012 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. I remember rolling my eyes at this ask, because the person who sent Gaiman the question seemed really sure that Shadow hadn't been described as non-white until the end of the book. Lots of people pointed out that no, it's obvious in chapter one unless you're really not paying any attention at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Where is it indicated in the first chapter? I'm asking just for clarity, because I don't have a copy to hand, and I haven't read it in many, many years and don't remember how it's described either way.

[likeadeuce]

To be totally honest, I just re-read this book recently and I *still* didn't see the 'obvious' description. I am not suggesting that people who got that out of the text are wrong but I feel like I'm being kind of thick about this. I mean, Gaiman's prose is sort of dense and allusive, I don't think missing outon it is a very good social justice litmus test.

[peablossom]

A guard comments on his ethnicity in the first chapter and describes him with several racial slurs.

[(Anonymous)]

In my paperback copy, page 12 is the first hint that Shadow is maybe not white:

"I don't get you, Shadow," said Wilson, as they walked.
"What's not to get, sir?"
"You. You're too fucking quiet. Too polite. You wait like the old guys but you're what? Twenty-five? Twenty-eight?"
"Thirty-two, sir."
"And what are you? A spic? A gypsy?"
"Not that I know of, sir. Maybe."
"Maybe you got nigger blood in you. You got bigger blood in you, Shadow?"
"Could be, sir." Shadow stood tall and looked ahead, and concentrated on not allowing himself to be riled by this man.

It's not too in your face about it, but Gaiman's clearly trying to sneak in physical description of his main character via the interrogation with the prison guard.

[(Anonymous)]

So the first things he asks is: are you varying types of european-white? Then he asks, are you part black?

But the first thing he assumes is latin and people are surprised readers aren't going "I KNEW IT, HE'S BLACK"?

@_@

[(Anonymous)]

I think that translators might be biased OR not knowledable in slurs OR not wanting to translate them in order to be politically correct.

I've read the Polish version and I remember Shadow's skin tone description somewhere in the end when he had been talking with Mr. Wednesday. In the beginning he only had been given black hair.

Though, no excuses for English version (neither the Polish one I've read as it's mentioned he's black).

[(Anonymous)]

As I said further down, I always assumed that this particular scene was yet another way to set up Shadow as a character that people have trouble grasping.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, all the stuff about shadows skin colour, in the start of, and most of the book, comes from people (the first of which being a racist prison guard) all /ASKING/ (Implying the people physically looking at him aren't sure enough about his skin colour to definitive state it) if he has any gypse in him, if he has an native American in him, etc some one actually used the "cream and coffee" expression in front of him about someone else.
All indications of his skin colour are from characters in the book, and none of them can say with any certainty he is not white.

I think I could forgive someone for thinking he is white.

[(Anonymous)]

getting asked "what" you are is a pretty distinctive experience of mixed raced people though- and his heritage is a plot point, right?

if he was default white nobody would bother asking

[(Anonymous)]

that's still pretty far from "he is obviously and unambiguously stated to be non-white in the first chapter"

[(Anonymous)]

My husband is "default white" but also fairly swarthy and generically ethnic-looking. His dad is Scandanavian and his mom is Austrian. Go figure.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, it's his white heratige that is the plot point.

Also, they don't ask "what" they ask "If" that's how I read it.
That is not unique to mixed race. I recall back when I was 7/8, a teacher asked "Are you an arab?" because, I assume, I tanned like a motherfucker and stayed tanned most the year. My response back then was much the same as shadows "I dunno". I later that day learned what the teacher was asking. I am not, in case you are wondering, an arab. But the teacher asked because it was ambiguous. my ambiguous ethnicity was in fact white.
and as shadows ethnicity was the same level of ambiguous, there is no reason to assume he is POC or PONC

[kallanda_lee]

I'm "default white" and I get asked quite a lot actually. A lot also depends on your facial structure, accent and language, he way you carry yourself, the way you dress etc.

Now I agree that in a work of fiction that very likely indicated the author wanted to say something about heritage.

But to the reader, that experience does not necessarily need to convey "he's mixed race".

[(Anonymous)]

"All indications of his skin colour are from characters in the book, and none of them can say with any certainty he is not white."

That's not really what I take away from your examples, though. If people are asking, they're asking because they're pretty sure he's something other than white, otherwise they wouldn't be asking. In fact, the examples you cite suggest that if they're sure of anything, they're certain he's not white and they're trying to ascertain what that "other" is.

[(Anonymous)]

No one is confused by an obviously white person. If someone has to stop and think about what ethnicity/race you might be, you're not white.

[(Anonymous)]

This hurts me as a writer. Why would you keep bringing up his race unless it's important? Why wouldn't he just answer unless it was important? Who answers "maybe" if the answer is "I'm white"?

To assume he's white isn't just defaulting to white, it's also ignoring red flags from the writer.

[(Anonymous)]

Clearly, Gaiman should have been more clear, because just bringing up race over and over again isn't enough. If someone is not white, you need to make it very, very explicit (but assuming whiteness does not indicate that the default = white, totally).

[(Anonymous)]

I think I could forgive someone for thinking he is white.

So, you think it's okay to just assume that someone is white until proven otherwise?

[(Anonymous)]

(And yeah, I'm an SA, but it's because it took me a few minutes to figure out what really bothered me about this. Feel free to delete my first comment, case)

[(Anonymous)]

da

But don't people form a character in their head that sticks until "proven otherwise"? I mean, I like to envision the characters, and I get hair color and body type wrong all the time, and it is jarring.

I know assuming white does have racial implications, but at the same time, I'm white, I'm from a community that's almost entirely white, if you say "A man walks into a bar" I'm probably going to picture a white guy by default, yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

White girl here. No one ever EVER asks me if I have any gypsy/Native American/black in me.

Also, previously married to a pale skinned man who WAS part African-American, but because of his pale skin he was never asked either.

People ONLY ask you those questions if you are dark-skinned.

[(Anonymous)]

Not really though? I have very pale skin, but have still had people ask about my heritage because of my eyes, and the contrast between my light skin and darker features.

In a book, yeah, the writer is communicating something, but in real life, some people will respond to various features that don't match their internal idea of what people of certain races look like.

[(Anonymous)]

You know, I read Shadow as ambiguous (which, no, does not exclude being white but does reduce the chances), but I really hate this argument. Because it's not just dark-skinned people who get these questions, and I feel like people weaken their own argument when they say it. Now many inclined towards a white-centric view who may have reexamined their thoughts will remember their relative who doesn't fit that mold* and carry on in their ignorance.


*My mother (and to a less extent my sister) are asked about their heritage a LOT. The most common question is if they are First Nations/specific tribe, but it's not exclusive. We have a couple very distant relations who are first nations (like 6 generations back), but they are white for all intents and purposes. Their skin is not dark and none of their features individually scream anything other than our very white-even-by-white-standards European. Some people just have a look to them that screams OTHER for no tangible reason. Shadow was actually pretty interesting in this regard- the part mentioned upthread made me think HE didn't know what he "was" and the unknown element came from his father's side. Which turns out to be true in a way, but not in the way I first thought.

[arcadiaego]

Seriously, unambiguously white people do not get asked 'what are you then'. And on the rare occasions they do it would not be used in the opening of a book to describe the character and the character would not reply 'could be'.