[ SECRET POST #2799 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2799 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 058 secrets from Secret Submission Post #400.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[dethtoll]

I don't agree with your definition of art. It's at once too broad and too limiting. But I agree that Spec Ops: The Line is art.

"Too broad" has been decently covered elsewhere, but as far as "too limiting," I'd like to take a moment to respond further to an anon upthread that I initially kind of casually dismissed with the Pac-man and Counterstrike comment, and I'm doing it here because I feel it's relevant: dismissing video games as "not art" is fairly ignorant, and it's like dismissing movies or comics or any other medium of expression as "not art." Yes, there's going to be games that aren't much more than competitive Tacticool Manshooting, or Bounce On the Penises to Save the Prince, or whatever the fuck. That's fine. That's expected. But video games are more than just that. The intersection between games and storytelling has been there since the text adventure days, and as technology improved, so did the visuals, which means visual storytelling (in other words, show, don't tell.) Games are now a multimedia form of expression, encompassing writing, visuals and audio -- right up there with film. You can't declare one film to be "not art" and not denigrate the entire medium. Film is art, period -- regardless of whether it's good or bad. And the same holds true for video games. Even if, for example, Counterstrike (or Call of Duty, which is mostly just more Counterstrike) isn't going to tell you some kind of rad story with amazing visuals etc. etc. etc. that doesn't make it not art, and in fact I'd argue that in games like that, the artistic merit of the game is often expressed through the players.

The Stalker series, The Walking Dead, Spec Ops: The Line, the Bioshock series, the first three Thief games, Deus Ex and Human Revolution, Fallout 1, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, Journey, the Metal Gear Solid series, Half-Life 2, Final Fantasy 6 and 7, Grim Fandango, Myst, Silent Hill 2, the list goes on and on -- if these games aren't art, then art is all the poorer for it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the multimedia aspect makes it worse off for it though. It requires skilled multiple skilled people and integrated well, where as say books or visual art requires one maybe two people for the final product. I'd argue the same happens with film though.

[dethtoll]

Video games don't need 40 people and a million dollar budget to be made, though. You're forgetting the indie scene -- and that goes for games and movies both. Look at Jasper Byrne's "Lone Survivor" -- he made that game almost completely by himself. And even before making Doom, John Carmack and John Romero made like a hundred games growing up in the early days of home computing. (Not to mention that id Software was at one time very small, encompassing not even a dozen permanent employees, half of whom were owners. Big difference from the Nintendos and Sierra Onlines of the day!)

And don't even get me started on the long, long history of independent film.

[(Anonymous)]

Of course, but that does make the entry level harder is what I'm saying. It's difficult for one person to be skilled in visual art, music, programming, and storytelling, and know how to intergrate all of them.

[dethtoll]

Sure. But that doesn't make them not artistic expression, particularly since many projects are driven by one person's vision.

[(Anonymous)]

This is a very strange argument to me. It's as if you're saying "it's not art if it's hard."

[(Anonymous)]

I never said it wasn't art? Just that the medium worse off for it because to entry curve's higher.

[(Anonymous)]

Just to note that I put the word "unequivocally" in the secret exactly because I think the games you mention in your last paragraph DO have artistic merit. But, for me, there are caveats for them in a way that there isn't for Spec Ops: The Line. A lot of these types of games might have, for example, fan service which (to me) isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not really artistic either.

Spec Ops is really the first game I've played where it seems like absolutely everything comes together to improve the artistry.

Even games like Metal Gear tend to have some more fanservice-y aspects although that doesn't prevent them from being art. Just…it wouldn't be quite so unequivocal in that case.

[(Anonymous)]

Why isn't fanservice artistic?

[(Anonymous)]

According to my definition (which will vary from person to person, but I'm using mine), fan service isn't artistic because it's not done to help bolster the themes or messages of the work. Showing half-naked ladies for the eye candy isn't necessarily bad, but they don't do anything to promote the central idea.

Now, Spec Ops does show pictures of strippers on the walls of mall, for instance. However, there is artistic merit to these, I would argue, because pigs' heads have been graffitied over the women's heads. And given that there's an undercurrent of commentary about the toxic capitalism and class divide of Dubai, I'd say there's merit to them.

But having eye candy just for eye candy? In my opinion, that's not artistic. Not wrong, just not artistic (to me).

[diet_poison]

I don't know how it would stack up against a list like yours with more experienced gamers, but I'd like to note that to me, the Mass Effect series is not only art, but one of the most beautiful pieces of art I've experienced. It immersed me like little else.

There are several other games I've played that I'd hold up and say "yes, of course this is art". They may be counted as mediocre compared to all games ever, but I haven't been gaming that long (outside of Nintendo at least) and I just have to say in general, if video gaming isn't art, what is? It often incorporates several elements of what we'd traditionally call art.

Basically, I'm +1-ing everything you've said here. Well put.

[dethtoll]

Oh, there's plenty of examples I didn't list. And really, to me, either all games are art, or none of them are. Mass Effect is just one of the better examples.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know that I'd agree that all games are art. I wouldn't say all films are art either though. But then, that's a personal evaluation.

[diet_poison]

All films are art, though. You might not think they are all good art, or deep art, or meaningful art, or art that's worth anyone's time or money, but they're still art. It's like saying apples aren't fruit because you don't like them - I really don't get this approach at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Is porn art? I mean it's film (a lot of it anyway). But I wouldn't necessarily consider it art.

Note that I don't think that something being art necessarily makes it better than something that isn't.

I'll take a good piece of entertainment over a bad piece of art any day.

I mean, I consider Birdemic art but...

[diet_poison]

I do not watch a lot of porn. But technically, I think it would be art, even if it's not quality. It involves humans expressing themselves in one way or another.

In any practical discussion about art it's unlikely porn would come up unless that's what's specifically being talked about.

And yes, it sounds like I think many, many things in our lives are art. And I suppose I do think that.

[diet_poison]

either all games are art, or none of them are

Yes. I agree. And I think they are art - if writing is art, music, photography, painting, etc. then there is no reason for video games to not be included.